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Using an AMRAAM has its disadvantages and advantages even when the target is a Raptor or similar stealth platform.

The disadvantage is that the seeker's acquisition range will be much shorter. Of course the actual RCS reduction will depend greatly on the angle of view, but in general we can expect a seeker range to be reduced to somewhere between 1/4 and 1/16. This corresponds roughly to an RCS of 0.02 and 0.0002 respectively. We don't know what the seeker range of the AMRAAM is against a typical 4th generation fighter, but ~40km is not an unreasonable assumption. This means that the missile will guide onto a Raptor if it goes active within 2.5~10km. This is tough but not impossible.

The advantage is that the AMRAAM is a much more energetic missile than the AIM-9 or similar 5"/200 lb class weapon. If the Raptor is 20km away and speeding away from you at around Mach 2, the AIM-9 will never catch it before running out of propellant. The AMRAAM on the other hand has a chance if it can find the target. If you can keep the Raptor visible on radar, the AMRAAM can be command guided close enough for the seeker to acquire.

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Enthusiast Joined: Oct 16, 2006 Posts: 80 Status: Offline

So why not mount an IR seeker on the Amraam.
The expected enemy that the F-22 will be facing uses both Radar and IR guided MRM's.
2 or 3 types have IRST systems as part of their standard sensor package.
And some use a laser ranger to get range information.

Combat Aircraft, 2007, May

Raptor Flag, report by Maj Lawrence Spinetta, USAF

1. Thrust of F119-PW100 today: 39,000 Ib class.

2. Supercruise speed of Raptor: 1.72 Mach.

3. Kill record of 27th FS F-22A in Northern Edge Exercise, 2006: 241-to-2

4. Exchange ratio of 94th FS F-22A in Red Flag Exercise, 2007: 36 : 1 (The Red force used "Unlimited Fighter Works", some Raptors were killed after they had run out of their missiles).

5. During the exercise, a F-22A was once encountered with three F-16 in WVR. After the former had killed two of the laters, the Raptor and the 3rd F-16 killed each other in a mutual kill.

Mal68 wrote:

So why not mount an IR seeker on the Amraam.
The expected enemy that the F-22 will be facing uses both Radar and IR guided MRM's.
2 or 3 types have IRST systems as part of their standard sensor package.
And some use a laser ranger to get range information.

Because the radar seeker works better unless your target has significant stealth capabilities.

(1) The radar seeker can acquire targets at a longer range and its performance is unaffected by weather. Hence, it provides a larger homing basket for the missile. This is important for a BVRAAM.

(2) The radar seeker provides vector and range, whereas the IR seeker does not provide range. This allows the missile's AI to pursue the target more intelligently. Again important to a BVRAAM.

(3) The radar seeker offers a backup Semi-active homing mode where the missile passively homes in on a target illuminated by the fighter's radar. This is useful for when highly precise and selective target discrimination is important.

(4) The radar seeker provides a better nose profile for aerodynamic purposes.

Newbie Joined: May 05, 2007 Posts: 2 Status: Offline

To answer Idesof, it's in an article in the new issue of Combat Aircraft. And I hate to disappoint Driver, but it wasn't arrogance. It was one Raptor versus 4 Falcons. The falcons were continuously "allowed" to rearm and refuel; Raptor pilots were not given any of the sort. This is to press Raptor pilots real hard in times of real war and see what they could do with what they had left.
In this situation, the Raptor had only 1 AMRAAM left; the pilot already shot down 3 Falcons when the last Falcon locked in with an AMRAAM at the last moment, But before the Raptor was killed, the Raptor managed to get his last AMRAAM off and killed the last Falcon.
I read the article fast, but I'm going to buy it and read it carefully again so to correct any errors I've made in this reply.

Enthusiast Joined: Nov 23, 2006 Posts: 28 Status: Offline

Warthog wrote:

To answer Idesof, it's in an article in the new issue of Combat Aircraft. And I hate to disappoint Driver, but it wasn't arrogance. It was one Raptor versus 4 Falcons. The falcons were continuously "allowed" to rearm and refuel; Raptor pilots were not given any of the sort. This is to press Raptor pilots real hard in times of real war and see what they could do with what they had left.
In this situation, the Raptor had only 1 AMRAAM left; the pilot already shot down 3 Falcons when the last Falcon locked in with an AMRAAM at the last moment, But before the Raptor was killed, the Raptor managed to get his last AMRAAM off and killed the last Falcon.
I read the article fast, but I'm going to buy it and read it carefully again so to correct any errors I've made in this reply.

Are you sure it was a Slammer that the Viper used? AvLeak stated it was a heater that got the kill.

BDF wrote:

Are you sure it was a Slammer that the Viper used? AvLeak stated it was a heater that got the kill.

??? I don't know what got the kill ???

But one thing we need to remember is that this is an exercise, so no weapon is actually fired. It may very well be that a seeker lock is considered a kill or that a launch solution for an AMRAAM is considered one. More likely, it is the above at a synthetic percentage... say 50% or 70% or whatever that is arbitrated by a monitoring AWACs or someone on the ground. This is not a particularly accurate way of simulating combat results even though it is a reasonable way of simulating a tactical engagement up till weapons release.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1011 Status: Offline

BDF wrote:

Warthog wrote:

To answer Idesof, it's in an article in the new issue of Combat Aircraft. And I hate to disappoint Driver, but it wasn't arrogance. It was one Raptor versus 4 Falcons. The falcons were continuously "allowed" to rearm and refuel; Raptor pilots were not given any of the sort. This is to press Raptor pilots real hard in times of real war and see what they could do with what they had left.
In this situation, the Raptor had only 1 AMRAAM left; the pilot already shot down 3 Falcons when the last Falcon locked in with an AMRAAM at the last moment, But before the Raptor was killed, the Raptor managed to get his last AMRAAM off and killed the last Falcon.
I read the article fast, but I'm going to buy it and read it carefully again so to correct any errors I've made in this reply.

Are you sure it was a Slammer that the Viper used? AvLeak stated it was a heater that got the kill.

I'd tend to think it was an IR missile too. Remember the Australian (I think) pilot commenting that he couldn't lock onto an F-22 when the thing was in VISUAL range from the same exercise?

Ok, but i think that under 5 or 10 Km it could be locked, moreover don't forget that if seen form rear both Ir and radar lock on are easier.

The whole debate is quite frankly rather silly. Yes, a Raptor lost to a Viper because of pilot error/misjudgment/confusion, not because of the hardware. To err is human, and it doesn't matter if what you're flying if you DO snarf up.

Can a Raptor be beaten by a Viper or a Superbug or even a MiG21 in a straight up fight, even in BWR? Of course it can. Anything can be beaten by just about everything else if the right circumstances appear. Which is what Red Flag and BFM's are all about: teaching you how to not end up in those situations, and how to deal with them if you do. The real test on how good the 22 is won't come until you have the Raptor going to war, and if we're lucky, we won't see that anytime soon.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1034 Status: Offline

Wow...thanks for opening this thread up after almost 9 months! If you had read through it, everything you just stated has already been said.

And to think that any plane with a 36-1 Kill ratio would be shunned by Congress.... Bang Head

Do some math, more like 92.3 to 1 ratio!? (combined) Shocked

well it is designed to replace a plane with an ACTUAL record of 100+ to 0. I've seen numbers ranging from 107-141 so I am unsure which the real number is. I know the Eagle loses in practice too, prolly more than 93-1 too, so teh Raptor should also be able to retire undefeated in 30 years.

Enthusiast Joined: Sep 21, 2007 Posts: 37 Status: Offline

toan wrote:

Combat Aircraft, 2007, May

Raptor Flag, report by Maj Lawrence Spinetta, USAF

1. Thrust of F119-PW100 today: 39,000 Ib class.

2. Supercruise speed of Raptor: 1.72 Mach.

3. Kill record of 27th FS F-22A in Northern Edge Exercise, 2006: 241-to-2

4. Exchange ratio of 94th FS F-22A in Red Flag Exercise, 2007: 36 : 1 (The Red force used "Unlimited Fighter Works", some Raptors were killed after they had run out of their missiles).

5. During the exercise, a F-22A was once encountered with three F-16 in WVR. After the former had killed two of the laters, the Raptor and the 3rd F-16 killed each other in a mutual kill.

Numbers three and four are actually backwards. The Raptor went to Red Flag first, then Northern Edge/Red Flag Alaska second. The Raptor went one-oh-eight to zip agaist the Red Force at Red Flag Alaska.

As I recall, the other Raptor lost at Red Flag was lost in a mutual kill with a HOBS-equipped F-16, after bagging two other HOBs-equipped F-16s WVR. I don't know for certain if those aircraft were HOBS-equipped, but I've seen pictures of HOBS-equipped Aggressors taken at approximately the same time as the F-22's participation at Red Flag.

Any body know what the Eagle's final score was at the end of its first Red Flag?

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