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I have heard someone tell me that it wasn't a raptor who was shot down, just two F-15's?

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Enthusiast Joined: Aug 07, 2006 Posts: 24 Status: Offline

Night wrote:

I have heard someone tell me that it wasn't a raptor who was shot down, just two F-15's?

You might be confusing RF with Northern Edge in Alaska.

After five pages of posts might I humbly add...

"See them. Kill them. Leave quickly. All else is rubbish."
-Manfred von Richthofen

We used to wax the F-15's in our F-4's all the time. Nothing new. Age and treachery will always overcome youth and vectored thrust.

maddog2840 wrote:

Age and treachery will always overcome youth and vectored thrust.

But there are sure a heck of a lot of aged and treacherous pilots who are frustrated fighting the F-22.

Very Happy

Quote:

But there are sure a heck of a lot of aged and treacherous pilots who are frustrated fighting the F-22

Probably so, But even an old,blind dog finds a bone now and again. Wink

If you already know that a Raptor is in the air and in an approximate area and you know you outnumber it, you can probably try to come at it from opposing directions. This will force the Raptor to have its tail towards at least one attacker increasing its radar visibility to that attacker somewhat.

dwightlooi wrote:

If you already know that a Raptor is in the air and in an approximate area and you know you outnumber it, you can probably try to come at it from opposing directions. This will force the Raptor to have its tail towards at least one attacker increasing its radar visibility to that attacker somewhat.

Although even if you know that a Raptor is in the air - and perhaps have an 'estimation' of his location, he and his 'friends' will have a much better picture of exactly who and where you are. The 'ball is in his court' and it's his choice whether to engage or not, and if he does, he will make the best use of his strengths.

I've talked to a good number of Eagle and Viper drivers recently who have been put in at least a similar situation, knowing that Raptors are in a general location (and with the F-22 pilots knowing only vaguely what they're up against - to keep it 'fair') and still losing every aircraft - in most cases never even seeing a Raptor - visually or electronically. Ask Dozer about flying 2 vs 8's, or more, and 'killing' every one without being seen - against the latest Vipers and Eagles out there.

History shows that, overwhelmingly, the first aircraft detected in an engagement loses. A Raptor pilot can take lethal advantage of his "I can see you, but you can't see me" situation.

Mike

Tim wrote:

Quote:

But there are sure a heck of a lot of aged and treacherous pilots who are frustrated fighting the F-22

Probably so, But even an old,blind dog finds a bone now and again. Wink

But the old and blind dog will feel sorry that he ever found something that fights, maneuvers, accelerates, climbs, etc like this bone.

Cool

dwightlooi wrote:

If you already know that a Raptor is in the air and in an approximate area and you know you outnumber it, you can probably try to come at it from opposing directions. This will force the Raptor to have its tail towards at least one attacker increasing its radar visibility to that attacker somewhat.

The big caveat to that is IF you even get a clue to where it's ROUGH location is, you won't know where it is a second later. So is formulating a "plan" to where you might think it's at a good thing? Ummm...maybe...maybe not...

As mentioned by Mike, experienced Eagle and Viper drivers from many different squadrons have fought the F-22, almost always outnumbering it, just to try to make it interesting. And they've tried everything. Most lose without even knowing where the F-22 is at. Some are lucky enough to at least see the Raptor before they realize "I can't do that" and die.

Dozer - over on Fencecheck wrote:

You don't see any Eagle / Viper / Hornet bubbas anywhere saying how they crush the Raptor every time we fly together do you? I don't, and fighter pilots love to brag, BY ITSELF that ought to tell you the whole story...

He's right. All you hear is about getting beaten - badly. The best quote I've heard was from a SW Block 50 pilot who said "Fighting Raptors is like fighting something from Star Wars. It's just not fun anymore." The Raptor squadrons have had trouble scheduling 'opponents' who just don't see fighting Raptors as valuable training time - you fly out to the range, you die a couple of times, you fly home bingo, and you never even saw your opponent. It's a waste of gas and flying hours from their perspective.

Mike

It beats Raptor squadron to schedule other Raptor squadron as oponents, and have a flash back in theories of dogfighting as they can only use their weapons on short range only...now that would be a thriller. Very Happy

Elite 3K Joined: May 10, 2004 Posts: 3035 Status: Offline

Guns on guns - Visual ID only - back to WWII but with Raptors Very Happy

!

Sounds a fun way to burn some gas - just wish I could watch the HUD tapes Thumb

!

well, you can still use AMRAAM at short range or sidwinders, M's at rear quadrants or IIR for all aspect, but given the shear kinetic power of the F-22's it will be just as hard like F-16 VS Mig-29's with AIM-9J's and Atols. Not quite WWII but something like early 80's conflicts where IR's rulled supreme.

Enthusiast Joined: Oct 16, 2006 Posts: 80 Status: Offline

AMRAAM's still need to use radar.

Why are you trying to track them or lock on to them with radar?
You know they are low observable so why do you insist on using the sensor that you know it is designed to defeat?
Why not use a different sensor?
Or is the USAF that unimaginative?

Here's a hint, they've been writing books on how to detect the plane since 1980.
Or failing not having the sensor built into the plane, using a little imagination on how to mount one one the plane or on the pilot's helmet.

When I started a tread asking about the possibility of filling "More than one AIM-9X on Raptor's side bay" ( http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-6550.html ) someone told me that it was simply useless... Rolling Eyes

Wind of change?

Mal68 wrote:

AMRAAM's still need to use radar.

Why are you trying to track them or lock on to them with radar?
You know they are low observable so why do you insist on using the sensor that you know it is designed to defeat?
Why not use a different sensor?
Or is the USAF that unimaginative?

Here's a hint, they've been writing books on how to detect the plane since 1980.
Or failing not having the sensor built into the plane, using a little imagination on how to mount one one the plane or on the pilot's helmet.

AMRAAM's can be used agains F-22's, they will guide given enough proximity to the F-22 for brun through (How efective they will be against countermeasures with such small RCS is another question). That is because Stealth reduces RCS but doesnt render it invisible. As you might have read elsewhere current gen IR missiles are having a hard time locking up a Raptor in the frontal aspect. So a active radar missile or an IIR would be the only ones to be useable up close. Probablility of kill? thats something else entirely and none of us are able to answer that question.

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