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Document title: Raptors for first time at Red Flag - F-16.net - The Ultimate F-16 Reference
Original URL: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-7505-start-15-sid-3d83fa65594474da5cff0408f2d3fadb.html
Printed on: 18 November 2008

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Raptors for first time at Red Flag



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playloud
PostPosted: Feb 23, 2007 - 07:45 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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mabie wrote:
idesof wrote:
J.J. wrote:
"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."


I love that! That's something that hasn't been stressed enough: even if you can "theoretically" see the Raptor in your radar, good luck getting any sort of lock on it. Further, here is an Eagle driver talking about not beeing able to "see" it within visual range, and his mount has one of the most powerful fighter radars in the world. As it stands right now, you've probably got a better shot of spotting the Raptor visually than through any sort of electronic means and that, I must say, is utterly amazing.


I'm curious if he had similar difficulty locking on with his sidewinders?

Hey says "I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

The Sidewinder would be considered a weapons system, wouldn't it?
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mabie
PostPosted: Feb 23, 2007 - 07:12 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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playloud wrote:
mabie wrote:
idesof wrote:
J.J. wrote:
"I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."


I love that! That's something that hasn't been stressed enough: even if you can "theoretically" see the Raptor in your radar, good luck getting any sort of lock on it. Further, here is an Eagle driver talking about not beeing able to "see" it within visual range, and his mount has one of the most powerful fighter radars in the world. As it stands right now, you've probably got a better shot of spotting the Raptor visually than through any sort of electronic means and that, I must say, is utterly amazing.


I'm curious if he had similar difficulty locking on with his sidewinders?

Hey says "I can't see the [expletive deleted] thing," said RAAF Squadron Leader Stephen Chappell, exchange F-15 pilot in the 65th Aggressor Squadron. "It won't let me put a weapons system on it, even when I can see it visually through the canopy. [Flying against the F-22] annoys the hell out of me."

The Sidewinder would be considered a weapons system, wouldn't it?


just trying to reconcile his statement with what i read about the latest IR missile seekers being able to target aircraft based on heat signature generated by air friction on the fuselage, not to mention signature from the engine nozzle/exhaust. I know the AF and LM paid a lot of attention to reducing IR signature of the Raptor but surely it cannot be as cold as the surrounding air? A difference of a few degrees would be detectable, wouldn't it?
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Night
PostPosted: Feb 23, 2007 - 01:58 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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lol, theres no way in hell that the F-22's exhaust is as cold as the outside air...


...is there? Very Happy
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Neno
PostPosted: Feb 23, 2007 - 03:35 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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it wouldn't surprise me if there where some sort of system that refrigerate just under the skin of the f22 wings or body (something like a big freezer deployed all aircraft long). Of course there's still the problem when is looked from six hours..
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mabie
PostPosted: Feb 23, 2007 - 05:59 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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He probably couldn't get a radar lock to cue his sidewinders onto the F-22. I can't believe that the F-22 won't be detected by IR sensors at that close a range.. the Raptor is great but not THAT great. LOL
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snypa777
PostPosted: Feb 23, 2007 - 06:25 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Mable. wrote:


just trying to reconcile his statement with what i read about the latest IR missile seekers being able to target aircraft based on heat signature generated by air friction on the fuselage, not to mention signature from the engine nozzle/exhaust. I know the AF and LM paid a lot of attention to reducing IR signature of the Raptor but surely it cannot be as cold as the surrounding air? A difference of a few degrees would be detectable, wouldn't it?


An IRST can detect temp` differences of just ONE degree. When the Aussie pilot said he couldn`t get a weapons system on it we don`t know what he was talking about so we just speculate! Did he mean he couldn`t get into a shooting position on the F-22 or his weapons systems couldn`t acquire it??

The F-22 employs wing leading edge cooling for those nice head on heater shots and other ways to reduce IR signature. There is NO way an F-22 is invulnerable to IR missiles because the F-22 will sure as hell have a heat signature , even rainwater to the kind of surface coatings on the fuselage will change the way any aircraft looks to an IR seeker from what I have read....The only way it could evade a heater is if it has defensive systems onboard to defeat their seekers/processors and/or other means that we don`t need to know about!

Anyway, good to see that the F-22 is spanking all-comers at Red Flag, I expect no less for the pricetag!

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mabie
PostPosted: Feb 24, 2007 - 06:22 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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An IRST can detect temp` differences of just ONE degree. When the Aussie pilot said he couldn`t get a weapons system on it we don`t know what he was talking about so we just speculate! Did he mean he couldn`t get into a shooting position on the F-22 or his weapons systems couldn`t acquire it??


I'm guessing his radar couldn't detect the F-22. This is consistent published reports years back when the Eagle and Raptor first engaged in DACT. Raptor pilots would actually resort to telling the Eagle drivers where to aim their radar to no avail.. I too am glad the F-22 appears to have been worth all the expense and the wait.
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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Feb 24, 2007 - 09:10 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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snypa777 wrote:


An IRST can detect temp` differences of just ONE degree. When the Aussie pilot said he couldn`t get a weapons system on it we don`t know what he was talking about so we just speculate! Did he mean he couldn`t get into a shooting position on the F-22 or his weapons systems couldn`t acquire it??

The F-22 employs wing leading edge cooling for those nice head on heater shots and other ways to reduce IR signature. There is NO way an F-22 is invulnerable to IR missiles because the F-22 will sure as hell have a heat signature , even rainwater to the kind of surface coatings on the fuselage will change the way any aircraft looks to an IR seeker from what I have read....The only way it could evade a heater is if it has defensive systems onboard to defeat their seekers/processors and/or other means that we don`t need to know about!

Anyway, good to see that the F-22 is spanking all-comers at Red Flag, I expect no less for the pricetag!


Well, yes and no. The problem with IRST is that it is not a feasible volume search tool. In order to acquire a target at long distances (>20~30km) it has to use tremendous optical magnification. Using high maginification optics also means that it is has a very narrow field of view. At the kind of magnification it takes to fill an F-16 sized target to about 1/64th of the sensor frame (~1/8 length x width), it'll take 30 mins to 3 hours to complete one full sweep of the 60x60 degree area in front at the slewing speed of a typical MSA and a capture rate of 60 fps. And this is all assuming that atmospherics co-operate which may or may not be the case.

In otherwords, IRST is only useful for volume search at close range or for point tracking at longer distances when cued by radar or EW systems. Once you reduce the effectiveness of the enemy's radar set through LO technology and you implement an effective LPI radar, you also indirectly renders the operational effectiveness of any IRST rig minimal.
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mabie
PostPosted: Feb 25, 2007 - 03:37 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Would using a helmet mounted display have made a difference in this instance? After all, the Aussie pilot had acquired the F-22 visually.
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parrothead
PostPosted: Feb 25, 2007 - 08:25 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Maybe with a Heater, but you'd have to be really darn quick on the trigger if you're gonna get a kill. The Raptor can run circles around other jets Wink . All the Raptor has to do is hang out at around FL500 and he can out turn you all day if you get up there with him thanks to thrust vectoring Smile . Oh yeah, he's also got a boatload of potential energy to convert to kinetic energy in a dive while adding power at the same time if he wants to slum with the rest of the jets down lower Twisted Evil !

Just imagine a Raptor in full burner diving on you from that altitude, launching weapons and gone before you can even get him on the HMCS - love that jet Thumb !!!

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snypa777
PostPosted: Feb 25, 2007 - 12:35 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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dwightlooi wrote:
Well, yes and no. The problem with IRST is that it is not a feasible volume search tool. In order to acquire a target at long distances (>20~30km) it has to use tremendous optical magnification. Using high maginification optics also means that it is has a very narrow field of view. At the kind of magnification it takes to fill an F-16 sized target to about 1/64th of the sensor frame (~1/8 length x width), it'll take 30 mins to 3 hours to complete one full sweep of the 60x60 degree area in front at the slewing speed of a typical MSA and a capture rate of 60 fps. And this is all assuming that atmospherics co-operate which may or may not be the case.

In otherwords, IRST is only useful for volume search at close range or for point tracking at longer distances when cued by radar or EW systems. Once you reduce the effectiveness of the enemy's radar set through LO technology and you implement an effective LPI radar, you also indirectly renders the operational effectiveness of any IRST rig minimal.


IRST might not make a great volume search tool but that is how it is used... some systems can track up to 200 targets. IRST doesn`t get you range data either, you would need a laser ranger for that, ala SUs`and Mig-29 I think. I am not sure if the Raptor carries laser detection gear like the Typhoon (LWR). The Russians have used electro optical tools for years to try to counter stealthy aircraft because that was the only measure they could think of. I agree that the atmosphere needs to co-operate also...Anyway, does the F-15 carry IRST?

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snypa777
PostPosted: Feb 25, 2007 - 01:51 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Just found this, supposedly Red flag 2007. Those Tornado's just don`t know it`s there!



red-flag-jpegs-070124020s.jpg
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red-flag-jpegs-070124020s.jpg



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PostPosted: Feb 25, 2007 - 01:55 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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mabie wrote:
He probably couldn't get a radar lock to cue his sidewinders onto the F-22. I can't believe that the F-22 won't be detected by IR sensors at that close a range.. the Raptor is great but not THAT great. LOL

Well I obviously wasn't there, but even if you couldn't get a radar lock to cue the AIM-9, you can still go for a no-lock AIM-9 shot using the missile's seeker tone to tell when ya when to uncage. This is assuming you can stay at the Raptor's six long enough to do all that. Wink

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mabie
PostPosted: Feb 26, 2007 - 01:00 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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LinkF16SimDude wrote:
mabie wrote:
He probably couldn't get a radar lock to cue his sidewinders onto the F-22. I can't believe that the F-22 won't be detected by IR sensors at that close a range.. the Raptor is great but not THAT great. LOL

Well I obviously wasn't there, but even if you couldn't get a radar lock to cue the AIM-9, you can still go for a no-lock AIM-9 shot using the missile's seeker tone to tell when ya when to uncage. This is assuming you can
stay at the Raptor's six long enough to do all that. Wink


I agree. I also raised the point that the latest IR seekers are sensitive enough to lock on a target based on fuselage friction with the air in w/c case it wouldn't even need to be directly behind the F-22. Maybe the F-22 has something secret up its sleeve in this regard.
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Scorpion1alpha
PostPosted: Feb 26, 2007 - 02:44 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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LinkF16SimDude wrote:
This is assuming you can stay at the Raptor's six long enough Wink


Heh. One of the hardest things in the world to do.
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