| Author |
Message |
|
idesof
|
Posted: Feb 13, 2007 - 09:24 PM
|
|
|
Forum Veteran

Joined: May 29, 2006 - 11:59 PM
Posts: 638
Status: Offline
|
Well, it looks like the argument of whether the F-22 will be exported is moot. The Bush administration has decided not to export the plane, at least until a new Commander-in-Chief is elected. The following article is from news.com.au...
Quote:
US rules out deal on F-22 Raptor fighter jets
By Cameron Stewart
February 14, 2007 02:00am
AUSTRALIA's largest defence project, the $15 billion F-35 Joint Strike Fighter, is now almost certain to go ahead after the US formally ruled out the only viable alternative warplane for the RAAF.
The US Deputy Defence Secretary Gordon England has written to Defence Minister Brendan Nelson saying the US will not export the world's most deadly warplane - the F-22 Raptor - to Australia.
The US statement ends a growing debate among defence experts about which plane should replace the RAAF's ageing F-111 strike bombers and form the front line of the nation's future air force.
It makes it virtually certain that Canberra will agree to formalise the acquisition of up to 100 F-35s when a final decision is due next year.
At more than $15 billion, the F-35 fleet will be the single largest purchase of any kind by an Australian government since Federation.
The yet-to-be-completed F-35 has been plagued by cost overruns and delays, but it has retained the solid support of both the RAAF and Dr Nelson, who says it is easily the best, most cost-effective option for Australia's strategic requirements.
However, the Labor Party and some defence experts had been calling for the RAAF to buy the F-22, which is the world's most lethal fighter but also the most expensive at around $170 million each -- more than double the projected cost of the F-35.
A study of Australia's airpower released yesterday by the Australian Strategic Policy Institute recommended that the Government seriously investigate the purchase of the F-22.
"The fifth-generation F-22 Raptor is the world's best fighter - its stealth and performance put it well ahead of the pack," the ASPI report says.
Although the US has never exported the F-22, Labor and some defence experts believed the US might relax its restrictions with a close ally such as Australia.
Dr Nelson discussed the range of warplane options with senior Bush administration officials during the annual Ausmin defence talks in Washington in December.
But in a letter to Dr Nelson last month, Mr England clarified US policy once and for all.
"Regarding the F-22, our current position is that the airplane will not be made available to foreign military sales," Mr England wrote.
The statement means Australia will have little choice but to hope that the F-35 is delivered on time and on budget with all of its promised capabilities.
The first F-35s are due to be delivered to the RAAF by 2014. Although the planes have suffered serious problems with weight and with software integration during their design, the first test-flight in December was a success and the RAAF believes the F-35 will be a potent warplane capable of matching anything in the region.
However, the price of the F-35s - estimated at around $70 million each - is likely to rise further after the US air force recently reduced its orders for the plane, driving up the cost for other customers such as Australia.
The US statement on the F-22 reflects a continuing reluctance by the US to export cutting-edge stealth technology, even to its closest allies.
Both Australia and Britain have clashed with the US over access to stealth technology for the F-35.
The Pentagon plans to buy about 2500 of the Lockheed Martin-made F-35s and sell the plane to nine partner countries, including Australia.
In March last year, Australia threatened to pull put of the F-35 deal if the Australian version of the plane did not have the same sophisticated stealth technology as the US F-35s.
But in meetings in June between Dr Nelson and then US defence secretary Donald Rumsfeld, Dr Nelson said he was "confident that all of our requirements will be met on the (F-35) JSF - the technology and data transfer".
Britain has also threatened to pull out of the F-35 project if the US does not share its stealth technology.
The F-22 and the F-35 are the world's only so-called fifth-generation aircraft, giving them high levels of stealth against enemy radar and infrared detection systems.
They also have highly sophisticated sensor systems allowing them to collect, process and share real-time battle data.
The Government has said it wants to replace the 1960s-era F-111s with a fifth-generation warplane rather than fourth-generation options currently in service around the world.
The Government has recently signalled its intention to buy or lease 24 Boeing F/A-18F Super Hornet fighters from the US, to ensure there is no gap in air combat capability between the retirement of the F-111 from 2010 and the arrival of the F-35 from 2014.
|
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Sponsor
|
Posted: May 27, 2012 - 1:06 AM
|
|
|
F-16.net Sponsor
|
|
|
|
 |
|
elp
|
Posted: Feb 13, 2007 - 09:41 PM
|
|
|
F-16.net Editor

Joined: Sep 23, 2003 - 09:08 PM
Posts: 3133
|
| Too bad. The F-22 was the right plane for that job and a one to one replacement vice F-111s would be stunning enough. And the rest of the mix JSF. Oh well. |
_________________ - ELP -
|
|
|
|
 |
|
TC
|
Posted: Feb 13, 2007 - 09:57 PM
|
|
|
F-16.net Moderator

Joined: Jan 14, 2004 - 07:06 AM
Posts: 3999
Status: Offline
|
No surprise here. LM and the gov't had been adamate that the Raptor was not going to be built for FMS. That was one of the many purposes behind the F-35. Most of the Raptor for FMS talk was just internet speculation.
Australia will be looking at Super Bugs to replace the 'Varks and 35s to replace the A/B Hornets. |
_________________ "He counted on America to be passive...He counted wrong." -- President Ronald Reagan
|
|
|
|
 |
|
zeroyon04
|
Posted: Feb 14, 2007 - 05:09 PM
|
|
|
Enthusiast

Joined: Oct 14, 2005 - 09:16 AM
Posts: 45
Location: Japan
Status: Offline
|
| This makes me wonder what Japan is going to buy as well. Buying the F-35 would be a problem because of its designation as a strike fighter would be in conflict with Japan's pacifist constitution (and it won't be ready in time to fill in the gap from the retiring f-4's). Japan doesn't seem to want another eagle fleet as well (F-15K/E variant), or the super bug, so... will they possibly go for the Eurofighter then? That would be a major departure from their american based hardware and stong ties with boeing and lockmart. |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
RoAF
|
Posted: Feb 14, 2007 - 05:57 PM
|
|
|
Forum Veteran

Joined: Feb 15, 2006 - 10:45 PM
Posts: 632
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
|
I don't see a problem. F-4 is also a fighter-bomber. Besides, contrary to popular belief, Japan has some PGMs and CBUs (to be used on enemy beach-heads)
Quote:
it won't be ready in time to fill in the gap from the retiring f-4's
That's the main problem with the selection of the F-35. |
_________________ "It's all for nothing if you don't have freedom" (William Wallace 1272-1305)
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Scorpion1alpha
|
Posted: Feb 15, 2007 - 01:20 AM
|
|
|
F-16.net Moderator

Joined: Oct 21, 2005 - 01:47 AM
Posts: 1320
Status: Offline
|
I (and others) have been saying this for how long? The Raptor isn't designed to be exported. Period. It took England to flat out tell someone "it ain't for sale". Anybody else want to ask and get the same answer?
The only reason the idea of a dumbed down Raptor for export lived was the media and some ******* hoping and praying to keep the idea alive.
If somebody wants a true 5th Gen fighter, get the F-35. It's designed for export (pending who you are). If somebody don't think the F-35 fits their requirements or lacks capabilities etc etc, then get something else. |
_________________ I'm watching...
|
|
|
|
 |
|
ATFS_Crash
|
Posted: Feb 15, 2007 - 02:20 AM
|
|
|
Forum Veteran

Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM
Posts: 760
|
| The F-22 is not for export now but might be in the future, I think Mr England indicated that when he said “our current position”. However I doubt it will be up for export for 1-3 decades. |
Last edited by ATFS_Crash on Feb 15, 2007 - 02:25 AM; edited 1 time in total
|
|
|
|
 |
|
ATFS_Crash
|
Posted: Feb 15, 2007 - 02:21 AM
|
|
|
Forum Veteran

Joined: Dec 15, 2006 - 12:28 AM
Posts: 760
|
| I haven't seen him say "it ain't for sale", but it would not surprise me. |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
dwightlooi
|
Posted: Feb 15, 2007 - 07:15 AM
|
|
|
Elite 1K

Joined: Aug 02, 2006 - 01:14 AM
Posts: 1170
Status: Offline
|
A few things...
(1) First of all, there is no "BAN" on F-22 exports. There was. But it was lifted by congress circa June-July 2006 if I remember correctly or rather they did not act to renew the restriction that sunsets at that time.
(2) F-22 Foreign Military Sales will be evaluated on a case by case basis, and ultimately (as with all FMS deals) it is a congressional decision.
(3) Thus far, no country has requested the F-22, hence no export evaluation process has happened. Therefore we do not know if it will or will not be approved and/or for whom. |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
Lurch
|
Posted: Feb 15, 2007 - 07:38 PM
|
|
|
Senior member

Joined: Aug 16, 2004 - 09:42 PM
Posts: 275
Status: Offline
|
|
Quote:
The F-22 is not for export now but might be in the future, I think Mr England indicated that when he said “our current position”. However I doubt it will be up for export for 1-3 decades.
The B-2 has been in service for a long time and hasn't been exported. The USAF is getting rid of the F-117 after decades of service and it hasn't been exported, and we won't even sell them used to another country. I just can't see the US selling the F-22. That just keeps us ahead of all others. |
_________________ Crew Chief
Torrejon 614th Lucky Devils 87-0248
Homestead/Moody 307th Stingers 89-2054 (Comander's CC)
|
|
|
|
 |
|
RoAF
|
Posted: Feb 15, 2007 - 09:50 PM
|
|
|
Forum Veteran

Joined: Feb 15, 2006 - 10:45 PM
Posts: 632
Location: Romania
Status: Offline
|
|
Quote:
The B-2 has been in service for a long time and hasn't been exported.
That's not a valid argument - NOBODY among US tech customers can afford to pay 1 bilion $ for one plane |
_________________ "It's all for nothing if you don't have freedom" (William Wallace 1272-1305)
|
|
|
|
 |
|
PhillyGuy
|
Posted: Feb 15, 2007 - 09:53 PM
|
|
|
Senior member

Joined: Sep 29, 2006 - 04:07 AM
Posts: 481
Status: Offline
|
|
dwightlooi wrote:
(1) First of all, there is no "BAN" on F-22 exports. There was. But it was lifted by congress circa June-July 2006 if I remember correctly or rather they did not act to renew the restriction that sunsets at that time.
Not according to this article, and note it's dated September 27th, 2006. There can be no request or review of F-22 foreign sales until this Congressional ban is lifted. Mr. England could not have said anything else regarding foreign sales even if he wanted to. |
_________________ "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."
|
|
|
|
 |
|
checksixx
|
Posted: Feb 15, 2007 - 11:35 PM
|
|
|
Elite 1K

Joined: Jul 20, 2005 - 05:28 AM
Posts: 1179
Status: Offline
|
| +1...Currently there is a "BAN" on F-22 exports. Call it whatever you want, but if you cannot just sell it outside the US without approval from Congress, the DoD and the President, I'd say its banned from sale under FMS laws. Not to mention the Air Force would also most likely have a say in it...Check |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
dwightlooi
|
Posted: Feb 16, 2007 - 12:11 AM
|
|
|
Elite 1K

Joined: Aug 02, 2006 - 01:14 AM
Posts: 1170
Status: Offline
|
|
PhillyGuy wrote:
dwightlooi wrote:
(1) First of all, there is no "BAN" on F-22 exports. There was. But it was lifted by congress circa June-July 2006 if I remember correctly or rather they did not act to renew the restriction that sunsets at that time.
Not according to this article, and note it's dated September 27th, 2006. There can be no request or review of F-22 foreign sales until this Congressional ban is lifted. Mr. England could not have said anything else regarding foreign sales even if he wanted to.
"The House Appropriations Committee voted June 20 to lift a nine-year-old ban on exporting F-22s. The ban was intended to preserve the F-22’s high-tech secrets, including its radar-eluding stealth."
Washington, July 5 (IANS) The US House of Representatives has recommended lifting a nine-year ban on international sales of the F-22 Raptor, its most advanced fighter made by the same firm that manufactures F-16s proposed to be sold to Pakistan.
But instead of putting the plane in the general shopping window, Lockheed Martin is eyeing US allies like Australia, Britain and Japan as potential buyers for the expensive plane.
The House voted to lift the ban after an 11-minute debate on June 20, Washington Post reported.
http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=2009861&C=airwar
http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1663534/posts |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
checksixx
|
Posted: Feb 16, 2007 - 01:20 AM
|
|
|
Elite 1K

Joined: Jul 20, 2005 - 05:28 AM
Posts: 1179
Status: Offline
|
| Dwightlooi, they reversed thier decision in September...Check |
|
|
|
|
|
 |
|
|