Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Mal68 wrote:

Think of Foreign aid as seed money.

Yeah. I'm thinking poppy seed money.... Evil or Very Mad

I'm with Elp on this one. IMO this country (USA) needs to focus on the home front - education, health care, the impending collapse of social security, education...

Did I mention education?

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sferrin wrote:

From Janes:

Quote:

US DoD budget hits Joint Strike Fighter schedule

The US Department of Defense (DoD) has struck a massive blow at the long-term viability of the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) programme, submitting a new five-year spending plan on 5 February that caps the US Air Force's annual production order at 48 through the life of the programme.

I swear they must sit around trying to think of ways to make fighter aircraft MORE expensive.

Don't mistake DoD budget priorities. The battle over how many and at what rate to produce these airplanes is only just beginning.

Elite Joined: Aug 02, 2006 Posts: 885 Status: Offline

habu2 wrote:

Mal68 wrote:

Think of Foreign aid as seed money.

Yeah. I'm thinking poppy seed money.... Evil or Very Mad

I'm with Elp on this one. IMO this country (USA) needs to focus on the home front - education, health care, the impending collapse of social security, education...

Did I mention education?

I believe that the USA needs LESS social spending not more. That is, I don't want to see my tax dollar go towards education, healthcare, retirement entitlements, welfare, etc. I believe that we should reduce the American tax burden to a non-progressive ~15% flat tax (no brackets and irregardless of income type or dependents) and allow the captialist free market to provide all of the above. There is no reason why the market economy and individual responsibility cannot provide any of these better than a set of SOCIALIST government programs. Social entitlements do only one thing -- they reward failure and punish success. And, that only breeds a a culture of failure, incompetence, irresponsibility, meekness and laziness.

I am especially passionate about the total privatization of education and the move towards a 100% individual retirement savings account system. The only form of involvement the government should have in education is the providence of educational loans (100% repayable with interest) to anyone who wants to borrow - regardless of need or income. Schools should compete for the business of students and parents by demonstrating value, performance and/or quality directly to the consumers of education. The Social Security System should be phased out completely and replaced by a tax free retirement savings contribution of up to ~20% of one's income. This savings will earn the same interest as a bank CD and should be completely voluntary.

Elite Joined: May 29, 2006 Posts: 640 Status: Offline

dwightlooi wrote:

habu2 wrote:

Mal68 wrote:

Think of Foreign aid as seed money.

Yeah. I'm thinking poppy seed money.... Evil or Very Mad

I'm with Elp on this one. IMO this country (USA) needs to focus on the home front - education, health care, the impending collapse of social security, education...

Did I mention education?

I believe that the USA needs LESS social spending not more. That is, I don't want to see my tax dollar go towards education, healthcare, retirement entitlements, welfare, etc. I believe that we should reduce the American tax burden to a non-progressive ~15% flat tax (no brackets and irregardless of income type or dependents) and allow the captialist free market to provide all of the above. There is no reason why the market economy and individual responsibility cannot provide any of these better than a set of SOCIALIST government programs. Social entitlements do only one thing -- they reward failure and punish success. And, that only breeds a a culture of failure, incompetence, irresponsibility, meekness and laziness.

I am especially passionate about the total privatization of education and the move towards a 100% individual retirement savings account system. The only form of involvement the government should have in education is the providence of educational loans (100% repayable with interest) to anyone who wants to borrow - regardless of need or income. Schools should compete for the business of students and parents by demonstrating value, performance and/or quality directly to the consumers of education. The Social Security System should be phased out completely and replaced by a tax free retirement savings contribution of up to ~20% of one's income. This savings will earn the same interest as a bank CD and should be completely voluntary.

Right. So, as we were saying about the F-35...

Mal68 wrote:

>Yeah. Lets keep burning up cash on foreign aid. Maybe we will be more liked.
- ELP -

Nothing to to with being liked.

How much are we spending in Afghanistan now?
How much would it have cost to fund a rebuilding program after the soviets pulled out in the 90"s?
Thus preventing the conditions that led to the taliban to gaining popularity.
An event that would have denied Al-Queda a place to train after they were forced to leave Sudan.

Think of Foreign aid as seed money.
Properly directed you can guide events that will happen 10,15,20 even 50 years in the future by creating the infrastructure.

Think Marshall plan after WW2.

Anyways, it OT

My point was that the AF was given a budget and it has to live with it.
Within that budget which program are you willing to zero out in order to pay for the F-35.

My vote is to kill the ABM program.

Iraq and Afcrapistan contribute nothing to our security.

911 happened because of poor visa and border control and poor control of foreign visitors. Taking all the manpower being wasted in Afghanistan and Iraq now, and putting it on our border with Mexico, contributes more toward our general security. Also more manpower toward port inspections and such. Beefing up coast guard etc. Having a healthy not_over_stressed_by_continuous_deployment National Guard that can do things here at home. Any forth generation warfare killing we need to do can be done by agents, specfors and the occasional SDB landing on a bad guys place. The Team America: WORLD POLICE model is broken, and broken badly. We have War Colleges that don't teach war. We have lawyers that stop strikes from happening.... re: that one taliban lovefest on UAV cam that a god damn lawyer stopped. I wonder how many Americans/Nato troops have been killed by those bastards we let go. All because of some lawyer. Our war colleges need a serious come to Jesus time and decide who's side they are on. Either the war colleges are with us, or they are with the terrorists. "War College" my a$$.
Habu is right. We need to spend lots of effort into education. The right kind of effort. We need to break the teachers unions hardcore. All they are doing is screwing up the system. We need to be training engineers. Lots of them. Any teacher that can't teach a math class, and make sure reading and writing and other core knowledge is done, needs to be let go. Fluff classes go. All of them. Along with all of the annoying school administrators. Most engineers at Lockheed are around 55 years old... will retire in the near future... and there aren't enough to replace them. About half of our engineering degrees both BA and above are given to foreigners.... that go back home to their country of origin. Engineer drain will happen in other Aerospace areas here... including DOD. Other stalwart defense institutions are in the same boat as LM.
In the area of growing fresh engineers, we are dieing and don't even know it. We won't have the brain trust to make high tech weapons soon. In another 15 years, expect to see that go offshore. Defend the country? Better start growing engineers with the urgency of the Manhattan Project.

I'll keep the ABM program. It is more for theater defense and given NK and Iran, we'll need it. ABM has nothing to do with Russia and all to do with having a chance at knocking down a rogue missile or two....that might even be a 4th generation warfare source.

Quote:

My point was that the AF was given a budget and it has to live with it.
Within that budget which program are you willing to zero out in order to pay for the F-35.

The budget for USAF is a joke. We are cutting needed flying hours and numerous other programs are going to seed... all because of Operation: Useless Dirt at 3-400 million a day and partly because of JSF. We can have JSF easy if we didn't have OUD. We need a lot of things for USAF that have NOTHING to do with new shooter airframes.

Elite Joined: Aug 02, 2006 Posts: 885 Status: Offline

Quote:

We need to break the teachers unions hardcore. All they are doing is screwing up the system.

The problem is not Unions per say, but unfair labor laws which allow Unions to practice their extortionist and racketeering activities. Right now the labor laws are extremely unfair to employers and non-union employees in the majority of country's states. The solution is a National Right to Work Law and equal rights for Labor organizations and Employer.

Basically, it is very simple. All workers should be free to organize into unions if they so wish. But union membership, paying union dues and/or accepting union representation cannot be a requirement for employment. Anyone should be free to join or be independent of any labor movement. Collective bargaining should apply only to members of workplace who choose to join the union. Also, while Unions and any worker is free to strike, employers should have an equal right to immediately fire any worker who refuses to work.

Right to work economic environments have been PROVEN to be more competitive and raises personal income more than socialist protected labor ones. According to the United States Department of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis, from 1993-2003 the percentage change in real personal income was 29% growth overall. The change in Right to Work States was 37% growth, while the change in "union shop" States was 26% growth. As of today... sadly... only 22 out of our 50 states are right to work states.

dwightlooi wrote:

I believe that the USA needs LESS social spending not more. That is, I don't want to see my tax dollar go towards education, healthcare, retirement entitlements, welfare, etc.
.........
I am especially passionate about the total privatization of education and the move towards a 100% individual retirement savings account system.

I should rephrase my comment: our public education system is a sham and a joke, and should - must - be fixed. I don't care how.

As long as we're hijacking a thread... I don't know much about teacher's unions, but I do know a few teachers here in Texas and I'm surprised they remain in their profession.

A good friend teaches junior high (grades 7-9). Due to the brilliance of "No Child Left Behind" a student can turn in an absolutely blank sheet of paper - not even a name on it - and receive a district (state?) mandated grade of 50%. Teachers are told to focus on getting students to "pass" TAKS (Texas Assessment of Knowledge and Skills) tests, not because the students learn anything but because state and federal funding is based upon the TAKS scores. There are entire websites dedicated to TAKS tests, you can download last year's tests (in English AND Spanish of course), businesses selling TAKS Test study aids, etc.

Texas also has a "No Pass, No Play" rule to prevent schools from becoming professional athelete factories. If a student isn't passing their classes they can't play varsity sports. Unfortunately they put a loophole in the law that let schools designate classes exempt from the the NPNP policy, the loophole was meant to let the school say Johnnie could still play football if he failed Home-Ec but still passed math, english, history, etc. But the loophole didn't specify which classes could/not be exempt, so many schools took it upon themselves to exempt math, english, history, etc.

One final note from my soapbox. My junior high teacher friend told me that 40% of the 14 year old girls in the class are either pregnant or are single mothers (or both). I guess they are learning something in those ***** education classes......

Elite Joined: May 29, 2006 Posts: 640 Status: Offline

dwightlooi wrote:

Quote:

We need to break the teachers unions hardcore. All they are doing is screwing up the system.

The problem is not Unions per say, but unfair labor laws which allow Unions to practice their extortionist and racketeering activities. Right now the labor laws are extremely unfair to employers and non-union employees in the majority of country's states. The solution is a National Right to Work Law and equal rights for Labor organizations and Employer.

Basically, it is very simple. All workers should be free to organize into unions if they so wish. But union membership, paying union dues and/or accepting union representation cannot be a requirement for employment. Anyone should be free to join or be independent of any labor movement. Collective bargaining should apply only to members of workplace who choose to join the union. Also, while Unions and any worker is free to strike, employers should have an equal right to immediately fire any worker who refuses to work.

Right to work economic environments have been PROVEN to be more competitive and raises personal income more than socialist protected labor ones. According to the United States Department of Commerce, Bureau of Economic Analysis, from 1993-2003 the percentage change in real personal income was 29% growth overall. The change in Right to Work States was 37% growth, while the change in "union shop" States was 26% growth. As of today... sadly... only 22 out of our 50 states are right to work states.

So, what you're saying is that the F-35 may be able to supercruise after all, right?

No offense, but if I wanted to get my fill of reactionary, right-wing dribble, I'd watch Fox News. Now let's get back on topic or take this to a more appropriate board.

Elite Joined: Aug 02, 2006 Posts: 885 Status: Offline

idesof wrote:

So, what you're saying is that the F-35 may be able to supercruise after all, right?

No offense, but if I wanted to get my fill of reactionary, right-wing dribble, I'd watch Fox News. Now let's get back on topic or take this to a more appropriate board.

I guess I got worked up and distracted. That happens sometimes when I see socialism and liberalism at their worst. As far as FoxNews is concerned, I think that they definitely have a right slant, but they are by far the most fair, balanced and accurate of the big five; you'll get better news from them than from NPR thats for sure.

Anyway, back to the supercruise issue. We don't know if the F-35 will supercruise. What we know is that it is not a specific requirement. It is not a specific requirement for the F-16C either but it'll do it marginally with a clean airframe or with very minimal external loads like a pair of missiles on the wing tip rails. However, I won't be surprised at all if a very clean airframe like the F-35 with ~28,000 lbs of dry thrust will be able to sustain supersonic flight without its burners. It won't be Mach 1.7+ on dry thrust of course. If it happens, it'll be somewhere between Mach 1.1 and Mach 1.4 -- similar to the Eurocanards when they are clean or with an external load of a few AAMs but no bulky stores.

Let's consider the F-35 and the Gripen or Rafale. The Gripen will supercruise at ~Mach 1.2~1.3 with 4 AAMs and internal fuel. The Rafale failed to demonstrate supercruising ability in Singapore but that was with a center line tank. The Gripen is ~6600 to 6800 kg empty. The Rafale is ~9500 to 10000 kg empty. The F-35A (AF-1 or later) by current best estimates will be ~12,700 kg empty. The F135 engine is rated for 124.5 kN (28,000 lbs), the Gripen's F404-RM12 is 53.5 kN and the Rafale's M88-2 is 2 x 50 kN. In otherwords, the F-35 has more installed dry thrust per unit structural weight than either of these aircraft.

What's probably more important is that even in terms of thrust to frontal area ratio the F-35 is favorable compared to these two marginal supercruisers. And while the F-35 is a larger, bulkier aircraft, drag does not scale linearly with size. In general, if you increase the size of the airframe and the amount of thrust by the same amount you get better performance and better economy because drag increases less than size does. This is why when you scale an airframe down for wind tunnel test models you have to apply techniques like using the Reynolds number and changing tunnel test pressures to approximate actual behavior. It is also why a 747 burns less fuel per seat or per unit cargo weight than a smaller airplane like a 767. In comparing the F-35 to the known marginal supercruisers like the Gripen and the Rafale, thrust was increase more than size was. The big question mark is how much the stealth considerations have impacted the aerodynamic qualities of the F-35 airframe. But the F-22 has shown us that stealth shaping of this vein is not necessarily incompatible with aerodynamic performance.

In any case, we won't know for sure until it is demonstrated in flight testing and made known to the public. But, no one should be surprised given the numbers that we have today.

For me, the problem with privatization is that there are important social pursuits that will never make money. Parks are beautiful and add to the quality of a city but don't make money. Providing a good education is important even if students can't afford it because there are enormous social costs to having uneducated citizens. Clean water and air are important but no one pays for it.

In fact, corporations do their best to externalize their costs and to make everyone pay for their products and services. Coal would cost a lot more if mining companies had to pay to clean up abandoned mines instead of leaving huge swaths of states barren and water tables polluted. Culturally, corporations tend to promote perspectives and answers that emphasize insecurity and consumption. Because they have the most money, their messages dominate the cultural landscape. Look at teens these days, lots of them can name every iPod model but couldn't name a Supreme Court justice.

In my opinion, the common good isn't something that can be achieved through the pursuit of individual interests. You don't need big government to protect the common good, but if you don't have it, you need a cohesive society with shared interests and that's hard to achieve in complex societies. Adam Smith, the father of capitalism, did not want a society focused on the pursuit of wealth and warned against the primacy of corporate interests.

Elite Joined: Aug 02, 2006 Posts: 885 Status: Offline

psychmike wrote:

In my opinion, the common good isn't something that can be achieved through the pursuit of individual interests.

I believe that maximum total utility in society it can be achieved solely through pursuit of individual interests by its members. This includes education, health care and retirement. But this is getting really off topic and I am not going to carry this discussion any further as I believe it is inappropriate for this thread or forum. I got carried away previously, but I am ending my part in this serious distraction here and now.

Elite Joined: May 29, 2006 Posts: 640 Status: Offline

dwightlooi wrote:

psychmike wrote:

In my opinion, the common good isn't something that can be achieved through the pursuit of individual interests.

I believe that maximum total utility in society it can be achieved solely through pursuit of individual interests by its members. This includes education, health care and retirement. But this is getting really off topic and I am not going to carry this discussion any further as I believe it is inappropriate for this thread or forum. I got carried away previously, but I am ending my part in this serious distraction here and now.

Thank you, dwightlooi. I usually enjoy your posts and while you present some intriguing arguments--although I am not always in agreement--I appreciate your initiative to stop the off-topic comments. FYI, I work for a business news publication, so I am not at all opposed to constructive discussions regarding economic and social policy. This is just not the forum for it. Once again, thank you.

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Bad news for the F-35 - US DoD budget hits JSF