Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

The PAK-FA (T-50) has been touted on other websites as the Russian answer to the F-22 (even obviously looking like a Raptor). Most items I've read stated that the Russians hoped to have a prototype flying in 2006. Has anyone heard anything about this? no disrespect (some of my favorite planes have been Russian designs), but do the Russians really have the hi-tech sector to pull off the avionics of such a program? I mean the Raptor is more than just a shape. On a similar note, why does it seem that when ever the Russian aviation sector gets behind the west they copy a design? B-29, F-111, B-1, this design, even their space shuttle.

post on the PAK-FA here:

[Link pending approval]

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japps wrote:

On a similar note, why does it seem that when ever the Russian aviation sector gets behind the west they copy a design? B-29, F-111, B-1, this design, even their space shuttle.

Simple... Why try to re-invent the wheel? The situation with the B-29/TU-4 was they flat out wanted the capabilities of the B-29, but the design resources were being spent on designing defensive jet fighters.

japps wrote:

The PAK-FA (T-50) has been touted on other websites as the Russian answer to the F-22 (even obviously looking like a Raptor). Most items I've read stated that the Russians hoped to have a prototype flying in 2006. Has anyone heard anything about this? no disrespect (some of my favorite planes have been Russian designs), but do the Russians really have the hi-tech sector to pull off the avionics of such a program? I mean the Raptor is more than just a shape. On a similar note, why does it seem that when ever the Russian aviation sector gets behind the west they copy a design? B-29, F-111, B-1, this design, even their space shuttle.

post on the PAK-FA here:

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread130829/pg1

??? We'll just have to see. But getting in the air by 2006 is not going to happen. 2006 has already come and gone. Judging from the fact that they are still "talking" about it with no firm designs being shown, I'll say 2010~2012 at the earliest and perhaps a service entry late in that decade if they don't get stalled due to funding or technical problems.

The PAK-FA is still on the drawing board. Most of the Images on the internet are actuallly artists impressions. As for the Avionics, Though the Russians are not as advanced in avionics as the Americans think they are, they know the limitation. Currently India, is going to partner them in the development of the avionics. The Indians, it seems have acquired a good deal of competence in the design of avionics and also composite structure manufacturing (the LCA has almost 60% composites). Composites by themselves add a great degree of stealth (Reduction of RCS) by their inherent design. Moreover Indian engineers have successfully designed and validates a Quadruple FBW system with Fail safe design. The Computers for the Bars Radar (exported to Malaysia) are also designed by them. So the Russians will design the airframe, engine and the Indians provide the finance, and avionics to a degree. Thr Russians generally build stuff which is ruggedised for any terrain and climate, so it remains to be seen how the PAK-FA turns out to [Link pending approval]

Active Member Joined: Jun 01, 2004 - 08:55 AM Posts: 134

Whatever happened to the MiG 1.44 MFI? If the Russians somehow, and that's a very big IF, succeeds in building the PAK FA to their intended specs and configuration, and build it in large numbers, 1,000 as they are planning, would we see additional orders for the Raptor to counter this? I read somewhere that India agreed to jointly develop this project.

fretmarks wrote:

Whatever happened to the MiG 1.44 MFI? If the Russians somehow, and that's a very big IF, succeeds in building the PAK FA to their intended specs and configuration, and build it in large numbers, 1,000 as they are planning, would we see additional orders for the Raptor to counter this? I read somewhere that India agreed to jointly develop this project.

Isn't the Chinese Stealth Fighter J-13/J-14 suppose to be based on the Mig 1.44 MFI? Confused

Combat tested American stealth aircraft before building the F-22

Combat tested Russian stealth aircraft before dreaming of building the PAK-FA
.

Corsair1963 wrote:

fretmarks wrote:

Whatever happened to the MiG 1.44 MFI? If the Russians somehow, and that's a very big IF, succeeds in building the PAK FA to their intended specs and configuration, and build it in large numbers, 1,000 as they are planning, would we see additional orders for the Raptor to counter this? I read somewhere that India agreed to jointly develop this project.

Isn't the Chinese Stealth Fighter J-13/J-14 suppose to be based on the Mig 1.44 MFI? Confused

Well, if it is, then it is not really stealth and not particular interesting.

Dwightlooi, your statement is based only on shape, but maybe they have been working on other solutions like plasma stealth..

LOL, how many times will people mention that pipe dream?

Plasma Stealth is pure and utter BS. There are unsermountable technical obstacles and while plasma blocks radar waves it also makes the aircraft a shinning beacon for IR sensors and MK1 eyeball. Not to mention that it would also block its own radio devices.

Its realy realy funny people still believe in that wonderland theory. Were would you put the tanks holding the gas for the plasma? LOL

Also, plasma emits so much RF it would make him dead meat to the F-22's lovely AN/ALR-94.

Neno wrote:

Dwightlooi, your statement is based only on shape, but maybe they have been working on other solutions like plasma stealth..

If Plasma RF blocking is feasible the US designers would have used it with or without the existing passive stealth techniques. Basically here is the problem...

There are three ways to create an effective plasma cloud to shield something -- anything. Lots of electric power (I mean power station class power), lots of artificial heat or aerodynamic heating (such as Mach 20 atmospheric re-entry) or lots of reactive gases. None of these are practical for a combat aircraft. In fact, the first two are completely out of the question which leaves the last. With that, with liquefied gas tanks the size of your drop tanks you MAY be able to get enough aerosol for generating a few minutes worth of plasma. And, that is assuming that you overcome the problem of the plasma cloud "blowing" off in flight to reveal the most RF problematic areas -- the nose and the leading edges. This is not to mention that you may have problem radioing your ground controller much less use your own radar or EW gear. In addition, it is not true that Plasma totally negates RF energy. It doesn't it just interferes with it. When space capsules re-enter the atmosphere you temporarily lose communications with it, but it never "disappears" from the ground tracking radars.

So far the ONLY demonstrated "plasma stealth" device uses trapped gases (hence there is no need to carry an expendable supply of it). Basically it is a screen that is very much like a Plasma TV screen. Its very much like a sealed ice cube tray filled with a suitable gas -- usually Xenon or Neon. Electrodes in each grid flashes the gas into plasma. This can be placed in front of an ESA radar for instance to prevent RF returns from the antenna itself when desired, while it can be turned off to allow the antenna to work. The device nonetheless reduces antenna sensitivity and reduces radar performance. It is also useless for the purpose of shielding most of the airframe.

And accoridng to Ben Rich one small screw protruding 1/8" was the difference between detectable and not at a particular range. And that was in the late 70s. That should give you an idea of the magnitude of the problem trying to use some "plasma stealth" device would face. If the thing didn't fully cover the aircraft it may as well not even have it.

Last edited by donk14N on Feb 05, 2007 - 10:39 PM; edited 1 time in total

The Chinese J-XX is loosely based on the Russian MiG 1.42 or 1.44. I found some images of the aircraft that were generated from open source material (i.e. some Chinese website) but have not yet been able to obtain them through any searches on the NIPR side. If I can find these images I will try and post them later. But basically, the Chinese J-XX fighter in the images looks like a mating between the MiG 1.44 and the F-22. Basically, the layout is the same as the MiG (canards, large delta wing, ect...) incorporating F-22 style stealth features (distinct angles, internal weapons bays, ect...) This is just judging from the pictures.

Pilotasso wrote:

shinning beacon for IR sensors

This part is not true.

dwightlooi wrote:

Lots of electric power (I mean power station class power)

and

dwightlooi wrote:

lots of reactive gases

are also not true.

However, good luck to the Russians in developing, deploying and maintaining something which IMO has dubious benefits.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

PAK-FA Russian 5th gen fighter