F-22 and International Exercises

Anything goes, as long as it is about the Lockheed Martin F-22 Raptor
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by Tomcat_71 » 19 Dec 2006, 00:34

Has the F-22 participated in any International excercises? If not, when will it? I know that military excersises can be well..., "catered" to the host nation or military branch.


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by PhillyGuy » 19 Dec 2006, 01:53

No it has not, nor has it flown with any foreign aircraft (yet) as far as I'm aware. However this Air Force article states...

The next Red Flag, which is scheduled for January through February of 2007, is expected to feature the F-22 Raptor.

Link


This has me thinking, the F-22 will most certainly have it's transponder and other RCS enhancing features on right? I wouldn't want anyone, even allies, mapping the Raptors true return signature, among other things...
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by Night » 19 Dec 2006, 02:29

PhillyGuy,

I'm sure the boys and girls in the USAF know how to protect such classified information :) I wouldn't worry about it.


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by akruse21 » 19 Dec 2006, 07:13

PhillyGuy wrote:No it has not, nor has it flown with any foreign aircraft (yet) as far as I'm aware. However this Air Force article states...

The next Red Flag, which is scheduled for January through February of 2007, is expected to feature the F-22 Raptor.

Link


This has me thinking, the F-22 will most certainly have it's transponder and other RCS enhancing features on right? I wouldn't want anyone, even allies, mapping the Raptors true return signature, among other things...


i would call Nellis PA if i were you, they might not have thought of that.


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by Night » 20 Dec 2006, 03:44

lol, even I had thought about this a couple weeks ago, of course they've probably thought about that.


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by idesof » 20 Dec 2006, 05:20

Night wrote:lol, even I had thought about this a couple weeks ago, of course they've probably thought about that.


I believe akruse21 was being sarcastic...


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by Tomcat_71 » 20 Dec 2006, 05:32

I read posts here from time to time, and read about how the 22 could beat 100 F-15s, 300 f-16s, and 1000 Rafales without getting the engines hot (or turning them on for that matter). Would just like to see the thing in action againt more likely foes. Hell, send 2. That should be enough to beat any AF on the planet including the Israelis. Can you tell I favor the older a/c like the 14, 15, and 16? Cheers!


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by idesof » 20 Dec 2006, 05:48

Tomcat_71 wrote:I read posts here from time to time, and read about how the 22 could beat 100 F-15s, 300 f-16s, and 1000 Rafales without getting the engines hot (or turning them on for that matter). Would just like to see the thing in action againt more likely foes. Hell, send 2. That should be enough to beat any AF on the planet including the Israelis. Can you tell I favor the older a/c like the 14, 15, and 16? Cheers!


Tell that to every single Eagle and Viper driver who has gone up against the Raptor and they will tell you how frustrating it is to get "shot down," disengage, get shot down again, refuel, get shot down again, disengage... all the while never seeing who the hell shot them down, even with the Raptor's transponder on. Read through the archives on this site, and you will read several posts by actual Viper and Eagle pilots who have testified to this, and who have gone up against the Raptor using the full extent of their aircraft's capabilities, that is, not simulating inferior, prospective threats.

As for "more likely foes," what, the Mig-29, which has something like a 0-to-50 kill ratio (against Eagles and Vipers, which the Raptor eats for breakfast, lunch and dinner), or the Su-27, which is utterly unproven??? Oooh, scary...

And then there's the Tomcat, an aircraft with an RCS the size of a barn. Give me an effing break.


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by Raptor_One » 20 Dec 2006, 06:35

Tomcat_71 wrote:I read posts here from time to time, and read about how the 22 could beat 100 F-15s, 300 f-16s, and 1000 Rafales without getting the engines hot (or turning them on for that matter). Would just like to see the thing in action againt more likely foes. Hell, send 2. That should be enough to beat any AF on the planet including the Israelis. Can you tell I favor the older a/c like the 14, 15, and 16? Cheers!


When you say you favor older aircraft, do you mean only for nostalgic purposes? If so, then I have no issue with your post. But if you actually mean to say that the F-14, F-15, or F-16 could actually compete with an F-22 on a 1:1 basis (or even a 1:2 basis), then I will call BS on that. The fact that the F-22 is a truly stealthy aircraft makes it much more lethal than these older aircraft. How much more lethal depends on the situation, but most situations are going to favor a single F-22 over multiple previous generation fighters. Also, the more F-22s you have, the better the odds for the F-22 vs. a large number of enemy fighters. For example, how many enemy fighters do you think a flight of 4 F-22s could take on without much trouble? 10-12 perhaps. When I say take on, I actually mean destroy. I'm sure a single F-22 could actually attack a large number of enemy fighters without being destroyed itself. It might not succeed in destroying as many enemy fighters as it has missiles and bullets though... hehe.


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by idesof » 20 Dec 2006, 06:49

Raptor_One wrote:When you say you favor older aircraft, do you mean only for nostalgic purposes? If so, then I have no issue with your post. But if you actually mean to say that the F-14, F-15, or F-16 could actually compete with an F-22 on a 1:1 basis (or even a 1:2 basis), then I will call BS on that. The fact that the F-22 is a truly stealthy aircraft makes it much more lethal than these older aircraft. How much more lethal depends on the situation, but most situations are going to favor a single F-22 over multiple previous generation fighters. Also, the more F-22s you have, the better the odds for the F-22 vs. a large number of enemy fighters. For example, how many enemy fighters do you think a flight of 4 F-22s could take on without much trouble? 10-12 perhaps. When I say take on, I actually mean destroy. I'm sure a single F-22 could actually attack a large number of enemy fighters without being destroyed itself. It might not succeed in destroying as many enemy fighters as it has missiles and bullets though... hehe.


Since you like cited sources, here you go, from the latest issue of Code One...

[quote]Achieving nine aerial victories on a single mission qualifies for bragging rights in any fighter pilot circle even if those victories occur in simulated Red/Blue engagements. An F-22 pilot from the 27th Fighter Squadron from Langley AFB, Virginia, accomplished that very feat in June at Northern Edge exercises in Alaska. Six AMRAAMs, two Sidewinders, and one burst of rounds from a Gatling gun account for the total. Nine may not be the ultimate maximum: he had ammunition left in the gun. For aviation history buffs, nine victories equal the real-world US record of Cmdr. David McCampbell, an F6F Hellcat pilot and the Navy's leading ace in World War II.

"The nine-kill mission may get a lot of exposure," says Lt. Col. Wade Tolliver, commander of the 27th Fighter Squadron. "Was it cool? Yes. But working with F-15s and F-18s to produce a kill ratio of eighty-three to one that day was way cooler. Not the fact that one F-22 happened to produce nine of those eighty-three hits."

Tolliver describes the aerial scene: "During that mission, our Blue forces faced the heaviest air threat we've seen in recent history. The total mission or vulnerability time was two and one-half hours. Those flying as Red Air developed their own tactics. In a single vulnerability period, they would use mass forces to try to overrun our Blue forces. At other times, they sent successive waves of smaller individual packages in a variety of tactics. To generate the numbers, Red Air returned to a simulated base to regenerate. Actually, they went to a tanker to get fuel and then came back to create additional threats."

"The pilot with nine simulated kills flew as my wingman that day," explains Capt. Harry Schantz, the safety officer for the 27th FS. "His nine kills were a function of the situation. We were making sure everyone could get gas, and we were keeping our area safe. We tried to shoot every missile we had. Red Air threats were almost overwhelming, but we handled every one of them. We averaged five to six kills per F-22 pilot on busy missions like that during the exercise."

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by Neotopia » 24 Dec 2006, 22:40

idesof wrote:
Tomcat_71 wrote:I read posts here from time to time, and read about how the 22 could beat 100 F-15s, 300 f-16s, and 1000 Rafales without getting the engines hot (or turning them on for that matter). Would just like to see the thing in action againt more likely foes. Hell, send 2. That should be enough to beat any AF on the planet including the Israelis. Can you tell I favor the older a/c like the 14, 15, and 16? Cheers!


Tell that to every single Eagle and Viper driver who has gone up against the Raptor and they will tell you how frustrating it is to get "shot down," disengage, get shot down again, refuel, get shot down again, disengage... all the while never seeing who the hell shot them down, even with the Raptor's transponder on. Read through the archives on this site, and you will read several posts by actual Viper and Eagle pilots who have testified to this, and who have gone up against the Raptor using the full extent of their aircraft's capabilities, that is, not simulating inferior, prospective threats.

As for "more likely foes," what, the Mig-29, which has something like a 0-to-50 kill ratio (against Eagles and Vipers, which the Raptor eats for breakfast, lunch and dinner), or the Su-27, which is utterly unproven??? Oooh, scary...

And then there's the Tomcat, an aircraft with an RCS the size of a barn. Give me an effing break.


Actually, Flankers do have two kills... against MiG-29s :o


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by checksixx » 25 Dec 2006, 04:15

Raptor_One wrote:It might not succeed in destroying as many enemy fighters as it has missiles and bullets though... hehe.


Well it carries the same amount of missiles the F-15 does internally, plus it can carry external stores. I think it will be very effective in the battle-space....

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by Tomcat_71 » 09 Jan 2007, 21:59

Jesus Tap Dancin' Christ... The F-22 is supposed to dominate current aircraft in our inventory. I would however, like to see the 22 in the Cope India series of exercises (or any others) and have a 100 to 0 kill ratio against Flankers, Fulcrums, Mirages, and whatever else those guys can throw at it. If it achieves it, then all of the school girl giddiness and gratuitous slurping it gets will be justified. Until then, it's as annoying as the "Can a Tomcat beat a Raptor" B.S

And Idesof, don't give me any crap about how frustrating exercises can be.
"Tell that to every single Eagle and Viper driver who has gone up against the Raptor and they will tell you how frustrating it is to get "shot down," disengage, get shot down again, refuel, get shot down again, disengage... all the while never seeing who the hell shot them down, even with the Raptor's transponder on."

Give me an effing break! Boo friggidy hoo! In the Navy, we'd go up against a diesel electric or nuke sub and get hosed EVERY SINGLE TIME! Each time we could go against a sub we looked forward to it, hoping that we could eventually beat one. Each time we got hit by simulated ASCMs my guys and I tried harder knowing that we wouldn't have that second chance. So therefore, one could hope the Eagle and Viper drivers are probably doing the same thing. "It got me today, but there has to be a way I can beat that thing" And they will.

One last thing, the Tomcat's RCS is moot. It's retired and playing golf. Because it can...BABY!


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by dwightlooi » 09 Jan 2007, 22:18

Tomcat_71 wrote:Jesus Tap Dancin' Christ... The F-22 is supposed to dominate current aircraft in our inventory. I would however, like to see the 22 in the Cope India series of exercises (or any others) and have a 100 to 0 kill ratio against Flankers, Fulcrums, Mirages, and whatever else those guys can throw at it. If it achieves it, then all of the school girl giddiness and gratuitous slurping it gets will be justified. Until then, it's as annoying as the "Can a Tomcat beat a Raptor" B.S

And Idesof, don't give me any crap about how frustrating exercises can be.
"Tell that to every single Eagle and Viper driver who has gone up against the Raptor and they will tell you how frustrating it is to get "shot down," disengage, get shot down again, refuel, get shot down again, disengage... all the while never seeing who the hell shot them down, even with the Raptor's transponder on."

Give me an effing break! Boo friggidy hoo! In the Navy, we'd go up against a diesel electric or nuke sub and get hosed EVERY SINGLE TIME! Each time we could go against a sub we looked forward to it, hoping that we could eventually beat one. Each time we got hit by simulated ASCMs my guys and I tried harder knowing that we wouldn't have that second chance. So therefore, one could hope the Eagle and Viper drivers are probably doing the same thing. "It got me today, but there has to be a way I can beat that thing" And they will.

One last thing, the Tomcat's RCS is moot. It's retired and playing golf. Because it can...BABY!


Unfortunately, this will never happen. It will never happen because exercises have NEVER been about simulating probable combat outcomes. They have always been about training the personnel in coordination and piloting skills using HIGHLY UNREALISTIC engagements.

For instance, AMRAAMs are fired as SARH missiles not the active missiles that they are. Missiles are given an arbitary range and hit probability which has little to do with their actual capabilities. F-15s are required to dogfight Mig-21s using sidewinders on narrow boresight lock. BVR kills are typically determined by keeping the enemy on continuous wave illumination for X number of seconds then asking the referee AWAC if you have a kill. WVR kills are determined again by staying on IR seeker lock for a certain number of seconds without the missile(s) ever leaving the rail. None of this stuff has anything to do with predict actual combat outcomes, all it does is give the personnel challenging flight time.

How do you simulate stealth? How do you determine the actual terminal effectiveness of an AMRAAM or R-77? How to you simulate an AIM-9X in a HOBS launch with flares or IR jammers operating? You can't. You can't unless it is for real. And if it is for real, planes get blown up and people die!


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by Tomcat_71 » 10 Jan 2007, 03:53

Neither people nor aircraft will need to be harmed. If an event utilizes the restrictions you mentioned, then the data gathered could still be used to determine whether or not a system was effective. For example, if an AMRAAM was launched at a target under these conditions, could it have hit based on the data in active homing mode? Yes or No. See......noone died and no airplanes were hurt in the production of this response. With Red Flag coming up and the USAF sending Raptors to Okinawa I may well get the info I wanted in the first place. Thanks.


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