Forum: F-22A Raptor

Quote:

The U.S. fought a supposedly inferior enemy in the air in Vietnam and its results were dismal, to say the least. Thousands of aircraft shot down, a one-to-one air-to-air kill ratio during a good part of the war, limited effectiveness of bombing raids.

The enemy were inferior and we all know why the US had such an appalling kill ratio, they decided to rely solely on A2A missiles which were incredibly unreliable. The enemy though, unlike the US, had a gun on their aircraft which the USAF desperately needed. This doesn't really apply to the Gulf War and Kosovo conflicts.

Quote:

And yes, the U.S. has botched that particular mission due principally to inept and incompetent political leadership and a culture (ours) that would be unable to stomach the only clear path to victory (namely, the wholesale slaughter of entire Iraqi towns, in the manner of Stalin). Indeed, the only way the U.S. can get that country under any kind of control is to act EXACTLY as Saddam would have.

Whoa, now that is extreme and it would not make any progress at all. The slaughter or entire Iraqi towns? My god how could you justify that? First of all Saddam kept the Iraqi people in control by brute force (or Stalin style as you say). The problem at the moment is that most of the insurgents promoting this instability in Iraq are NOT Iraqi origin, they are coming across the borders. You start slaughtering Iraqi people then your just creating more enemies, expediting a possible collapse/civil war and just making the situation far worse than it is. I'm still shocked at what you just said, how could you think that is the way forward.

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Newbie Joined: Nov 28, 2006 Posts: 15 Status: Offline

Yes, 1960s SAMs failed to shot down huge numbers of 1990s aircrafts. Maybe they had to shot down huge numbers of 1960s aircrafts (and they did: 1973 Yom Kippur war)
But 1990s aircraft failed to find and destroy mobile targets flying above 15000 ft.

So I say:

Battlespace: SA-10, SA-11, SA-12, SA-15, SA-18, SA-19 (ok, keep out SA-20) agaist F-15E, A-10C, F-16C, FA-18C/E/F, EA-6B, B-2, B-52 and so on...

I bet it would be a slaghter of aircrafts on SAM sites as in Yom Kippur (watch that incredible PAC-3 performance of 2003).

Then Battlespace: SA-10, SA-11, SA-12, SA-15, SA-18, SA-19 agaist F-22A, F-35, B-2 (witch is the topic of that forum)

I bet a lot of SAM radars would be taken out but at a high cost, similiar to that paid in Desert Storm...

And then: do you want to take out small tactical targets like tanks, APCs, artillery in a pure air raid scenario (without ground forces aid)? So you have to fly low passing on the target: SDB from 100 Km away - 60000 ft are useless in that scenario.

They are VERY useful in a surprise attack: a fourship formation of F-22 armed with SDB will take out all the enemy air force while it's parked on the ground, in just one pass.

A similiar raid would be interesting , maybe agaist IRIAF.

Also, we thought AIM-7s would do all the aerial combat in Vietnam: WE WERE IN ERROR!

We thought F-117 was invincible: WE WERE IN ERROR
In 1999 it was humiliating seeing Serbian going in the streets saying: "Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible"

We thought that Iraqi invasion would be a metter of days, maximum weeks: WE WERE IN ERROR

Now we think F-22A is invincible and that it will do all the job from 100 Km away 60000 ft: WE ARE IN ERROR

Dude they shot down one freaking jet. Humiliating for who? The invasion of Iraq was a total complete success. We took control of an entire country in under a month. Thats pretty amazing in my book. The part we screwed up and are still screwing up is more poliitical and has little to do with our military capibility. Its a good thing you arent involved in any way with anything to do with our military.

Newbie Joined: Nov 28, 2006 Posts: 15 Status: Offline

Yes, thay brought down 2 jets, but one was THAT JET (F-117). It was said it was invulnerable (and don't lie to yourself, it was said)

No WMD found, no democracy in, a huge insurgency, speaking of retirement...

Is that a military success?

http://www.icasualties.org/oif/

Can you read? Just checking because i'm pretty sure i said the invasion was a complete success, what followed wasnt. Comprende?

Newbie Joined: Nov 28, 2006 Posts: 15 Status: Offline

I am saying that:

We thought AIM-7s would do all the aerial combat in Vietnam: WE WERE IN ERROR!

We thought F-117 was invincible: WE WERE IN ERROR
In 1999 it was humiliating seeing Serbian going in the streets saying: "Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible"

We thought that Iraqi invasion would be a metter of days, maximum weeks: WE WERE IN ERROR

Now we think F-22A is invincible and that it will do all the job from 100 Km away 60000 ft: WE ARE IN ERROR

Anybody with half a brain knows that the 22 is not invincible...what the 22 is though is a quantam leap in aircraft technology that wont be matched for a long time to come. Argue all you want, its the truth.

mt_hg wrote:

We thought F-117 was invincible: WE WERE IN ERROR
In 1999 it was humiliating seeing Serbian going in the streets saying: "Sorry, we didn't know it was invisible"

Nobody whith a brain seriously said that the 117 was invincible, simply hard to detect.. Thus the right definition was "low observability", terms like "invisible" were journalistic exasperation.. this is a bed habit tipic of americans, and every time is frustrating for me to see Apollo Creed falling under Ivan Drago's fists Very Happy

I think isn't impossible to shoot down a Raptor, but probably is simply the hardest fighter to detect and hit by enemy's hardware. (well, i hope so..)

Geez, you guys just can't resist a troll, can you?

Just ignore this troll and they will stop posting all this distracting, disrupting drivel.

Neno wrote:

....this is a [bad] habit tipic[al] of americans, and every time [it's] frustrating for me to see Apollo Creed falling under Ivan Drago's fists Very Happy

...But Rocky eventually came back and damn near took Drago's head off with a Philly Haymaker! Care to apply that metaphor to anything? Wink

There's a new technology out there to create really really stealthy airframes without funky shaping - it deals with lasers and quick pulse shots at a metal.... It creates a micro-structure on the surface of the metal that makes its reflectivity to electromagnetic energy close to being a "black body". Depending the on the properties and durability of the micro-surface it may be possible to apply the technique on supersonic capable airframes. Then again, even its properties are not that rugged, a durable paint/coating applied to the surface could allow it to be used on "fast" aircraft. It'll be interesting to see what developes (militarily) from this new found technique but it'll like not be ever published.

IR is going to rule the next real air-battle, and we've shot ourselves in the foot on that scenario as we're not building Raptors with IRST. Also, we with our sidewinders are in worse off shape than the other guys on the other side of the pond. We've also spent next to 0 time on reducing the IR signatures of the F-22 and F-35. Even with the loan type nozzel on the 35, and the flat plate F-22, those heat signatures are still quite detectable. Though I was not a fan of the YF-23, that plane did take IR seriously enough. The F-22 will be more survivable as it has the speed to reduce the launch envelopes of the heat seekers, but the 35 is in much much worse shape as it does not have that kind of speed and it's engine runs HOT. That plane (F-35) is a lose - lose situation all around.

Trolls banned... thread locked. Time to move on.

I question why this thread should be locked! Resonable questions are being asked of the F-22 and it's possible abilities, please do not lock this thread on the account of a German poster, whom obviously uses English as their second language. Although they have difficulty getting their point across please give them time to do so. This thread has the potential to open up discusion of what SAM threats future aircraft will meet and how we can overcome them!

Forum: F-22A Raptor

F-22 Survivability against latest Russian made SAMs