Forum: F-22A Raptor

What's the opinion of Raptor and Lightning 2 ability to survive in a SA-10, SA-12, and SA-15 environment? From what I read the 15 can shoot down PGMs......that's mean!

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I started a similar topic some time ago. All that is known is that the Raptor was designed to survive against double-digit SAMs. How well it would perform is classified.

I'm all for a 2 seat Wild Weasel version of the 22. It would be the perfect platform in my opinion.

Tomcat_71 wrote:

From what I read the 15 can shoot down PGMs......that's mean!

Perhaps but at what ranges and under what conditions? No SAM will be able to track and shoot an F-22 at 60nm out while it's lobbying SDB's.

And I believe there are plans to enhance and expand the F-22's SEAD capabilities, there is no need for a two seat specialized variant.

Elite Joined: Nov 27, 2004 Posts: 535 Status: Offline

1. According to the declaration of a LM engineer in the end of 1990s, the stealthy capability of F-22A would make it to be able to approach the SAM system of S-300 (SA-10/SA-12) class safely to the distance of 24 km at least.

2. In 2004, the Russian military manufacturer declared that its new SAM system (S-400) will be able to intercept the "Stealthy target" at the distance of around 90 km ~ Although it gave no definition for that "Stealthy target", and personally, I think the "Stealthy target" it said wouldn't reach the class of F-22A.

3. As for the effective range of A-G weapons that will be used by F-22A's internal weapon bays:

A. 1,000 Ib class JDAM:
A F-22A had thrown it with the speed of Mach 1.5 and at height of 50,000 fts during a test this year, and then it hit a ground target at the distance of 44 km away ~ Just image what range it will be able to achieve if F-22A threws it with the speed of Mach 1.8+ and at height of 60,000 fts +.

B. 1,000 Ib class JDAM-ER with the kit of "Diamond back":
It is said that its range will be able to reach three times the range of JDAM in the same firing condition.

C. SDB:
Its effective range is similar to JDAM-ER, and its size is so small that F-22A shall be able to carry 6~8 SDBs internally, instead of 2 for JDAM/JDAM-ER.

D. SMACM:
a. A mini-cruise missile that can be carried by F-22A internally.
b. 142 Ib inweight and F-22A shall be able to carry 8 missiles internally.
c. Effective range of 200 mile ~ 250 NM (322 ~ 463 km) class.

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/o ... SMACM.html

http://www.missilesandfirecontrol.com/o ... -SMACM.pdf

http://defense-update.com/products/s/smacm.htm

what about avoidingdetection from enemy satellites ? anybody knows something about this?

toan wrote:

1. According to the declaration of a LM engineer in the end of 1990s, the stealthy capability of F-22A would make it to be able to approach the SAM system of S-300 (SA-10/SA-12) class safely to the distance of 24 km at least.

But that's just in the head on aspect, right? If for whatever reason, he turns away from the site at that range without destroying it, He's a sitting duck.

Elite Joined: Nov 27, 2004 Posts: 535 Status: Offline

F-22A has no need to approach S-300 SAM so close in the real A-G / SEAD combat.

1. With the help of supercruise and JDAM, F-22A will be able to attack S-300 at the range of 44 to 60 km.

2. With the help of supercruise and JDAM-ER / SDB, F-22A will be able to attack S-300 / S-400 at the range of 100 to 150 km+.

3. With the help of SMACM, F-22A will be able to attack S-300 / S-400 at the range of 322 to 463 km.

toan wrote:

F-22A has no need to approach S-300 SAM so close in the real A-G / SEAD combat.

1. With the help of supercruise and JDAM, F-22A will be able to attack S-300 at the range of 44 to 60 km.

2. With the help of supercruise and JDAM-ER / SDB, F-22A will be able to attack S-300 / S-400 at the range of 100 to 150 km+.

3. With the help of SMACM, F-22A will be able to attack S-300 / S-400 at the range of 322 to 463 km.

Now that's against a fixed site right? That almost begs for another forum question: Survivability of these smart weapons against point defence systems like the SA-15 which can shoot them down (or at least take away the comfort zone of employing them).

From Globalsecurity.org: A number of countries have precision weapons and a reliable shield is necessary against these weapons. The new Russian anti-aircraft missile system Tor is such a shield. The Tor system ensures reliable protection for government, industrial and military sites and ground troops from all types of missiles, unpiloted aircraft, aircraft bombs, aircraft and helicopters with stealth capabilities.

In a high ECM environment those systems (even assuming what they claim is true) might be overwhelmed with multiple bombs downrange.

Also, the F-22's all aspect RCS might be higher than it's frontal one but I doubt it balloons to the point where it's a standard 3M2. So no it will not be a "sitting duck", just a very stealthy and fast-moving duck. Cool

Well... so much to consider...

1. F-22As will never fly in by themselves. Its stupid to do so.

2. F-22As, B-2As, and F-35s will never operate without the presence of friendly standoff jamming. Jamming is a neccessity in using stealth aircraft as it degrades radar performance immensly.

3. F-22As on opening day of the war will be tasked primarily to: A. Killing enemy AWACS, B. Killing AWACS escorts, C. Killing enemy air assets.
Aside from this, they will have limited taskings to hit enemy fixed 3C assets and other fixed targets.

4. B-2As and F-35s will be tasked to taking out ground assets. F-35s will launch all sorts of weapons, including JASSMS and JSOWS.

When the Russians claim that the S300 can destroy a stealthy target at such and such a distance, one must ask the question how they could make such a claim in the first place. What is their definition of a stealthy target? Is this in any way related to the F-117 shot down in the Balkans, the wreckage of which was very likely made available to Russia to study. In any case, the 3rd generation stealth of the F-22 and F-35 would pose a bigger challenge and I'd just have to go with the development teams statements that they can cope with the S300.

Newbie Joined: Nov 28, 2006 Posts: 15 Status: Offline

Hi to all! I would just remember F-117 down by a Vietnam era SA-3 (the F-117 was just an idea when SA-3 where deployed from a lot of years).
...So F-22 shot down by a Regan era SA-10... or worse today era SA-20.
... and ok against fixed SAM site (SA-2 the last?)... but mobile ones (like every SAM site today) with radar on and off are another story...
in a battle space (44 days of aerial campaign against an import country, NOT the producer) with B-2, F-35 and F-22 against SA-10, SA-12, SA-11, SA-15, SA-17, SA-18, SA-19, SA-20 and a quite no-match air Force (Some older MiG-29, upgraded MiG-21 and Mirage III armed with SARH missile and IR short range like R-550 or R-60), I think the losses rateo would be similiar to that of Desert Storm, nothing more, nothing less.

There are lots of ways to negate a mobile or fixed SAM site!
I wonder how these sites would cope with the latest version HARMS with counter-shutdown ability traveling at 2300 kph!

Newbie Joined: Dec 04, 2006 Posts: 8 Status: Offline

Most current mobile SAM's have a limited envelope compared to fixed sites, if I'm not mistaken. At 60,000 ft, a raptor could fly directly over most of them. They could spot them, but not engage.

Forum: F-22A Raptor

F-22 Survivability against latest Russian made SAMs