Forum: F-16 Procedures

From MULTICOMMAND-11 F16 HANDBOOK, Chapter 3, page 14:

Quote:

"If in a three/four-in-the-slot-line-up, two should line-up in echelon but with sufficient wingtip spacing to allow three/four to stablish position without his wingtips being in one´s or two´s exhaust. Three/four should line-up in echelon with four lining-up where he can see his element mate´s cockpit in front of two´s vertical stabilizer"

With this explanation I find a bit difficult to picture in my head how the jets are placed for this formation take off. Does anyone have some picture or draw that shows it?

Is three between one and two? if four is echelon with three, is directly behind one??

Cheers

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I'll try to help you with an ASCII design:

----------------------4-SHIP, #4 IN THE SLOT LINE-UP--------------------------

..............................................................................
............|.................................................................
.......... / \................................................................
.... ---|-1-|---...........................|..............................
...........**.............................. / \.............|...............
........................................---|-2-|---......./ \..............
............................|................**.......---|-4-|---........
.......................... / \ .............................**..............
.....................---|-3-|---...........................................
...........................**................................................
..............................................................................

If this doesn't help, just tell me and i'll try to upload a drawing.

Cheers.

JP:

Unless something's changed in the modern "Aim High" Air Force since my time, I think you've got #3 & #4 reversed (unless #4 is the element lead??). Maybe "slot" has been redefined (possibly as a result of the increased number of female fighter pilots).

In any case, if #3 is the element lead, as a minimum, this lineup would require #3 to pass #4 on a formation takeoff, and would require #4 to crossover during the join-up, which in this case would be in a right turn out. Or maybe #2 crosses over and the element joins to the inside of the turn.

Maybe some new exercise in Training Command? Admittedly, the handbook description is not well written. They may put #3 in the "slot" on single-ship heavy-weight takeoffs or radar trail departures, but I would think #4 would still be the last to roll. That's why he is #4.

Nice diagram though.

Aim High, regards

I think this is what they mean....

Smitty

Outlaw is correct, I've put #3 & #4 the other way round.

So, here is the correct line-up:

----------------------4-SHIP, #4 IN THE SLOT LINE-UP--------------------------

..............................................................................
............|.................................................................
.......... / \................................................................
.... ---|-1-|---...........................|..............................
...........**.............................. / \.............|...............
........................................---|-2-|---......./ \..............
............................|................**.......---|-3-|---........
.......................... / \ .............................**..............
.....................---|-4-|---...........................................
...........................**................................................
..............................................................................

P.S. #1: Here's the text from another manual, better-written in my opinion:
"Four-in-the-Slot. Similar to three-in-the slot, except Number Three pulls forward to normal echelon position on Number Two and Number Four pulls forward so that Number Three's helmet is visible in front of Number Two's tail (over the spine)."

#2: So not a new "feminine" slot!

#3: I should be more carefull posting on late hours! Confused

Thank you very much for the time you took to make that graphic Smile

Makes it perfectly clear.

Now I [Link pending approval] in what kind of situations and why would this formation be chosen?

Cheers

Tulkas

45 meter wide runways, 10 meter wingspans, and the requirement to get all 4 aircraft on the runway for 2-ship element formation takeoffs. This expedites traffic flow. The wingman move in to 3 meter spacing wing-tip to wing-tip between aircraft after brake release.

During a formation takeoff, if lead aborted or someone had directional control problems (blown tire, etc.), 3 meters was the recommended spacing on the runway for flexibility, but most people gradually slid in closer, especially in bad weather or when just “hot-dog”ing. However, I’m sure they don’t “hot-dog” anymore in today’s highly professional & disciplined worldwide Air Forces (Vermont Guard evidently has a waiver).

To do all this you have to stagger the lineup as Jp’s graphic illustrates. Direction of turn out determined which side of the runway lead positioned himself/herself on.

The same lineup is also generally used for single-ship takeoffs, but doesn’t have to be. Standard echelon could work. And there are wider runways around allowing other options.

Forum Veteran Joined: Jul 01, 2007 - 07:22 PM Posts: 620

We prefer to do rolling takeoffs to eliminate this confusion. Less to remember, you know?

You mean you don't do this anymore? And who gets confused?

Forum Veteran Joined: Jul 01, 2007 - 07:22 PM Posts: 620

We do it once in a blue moon, but when it is briefed it gets mixed up usually and it is a bit unnatural and the spacing gets messed up when we are out on the runway. After the B-course, the whole idea is to keep the jets as far away as possible while still maintaining Mutual Support. Formation takeoffs and landings and BD checks are really the only time we want to get close.

Understand. Thanks for the reply.

Wish I was doing what you're doing.

regards

First off to clear up any confusion, putting three in the slot is not used for a formation takeoff. It is just a way to get the four-ship on the runway. Each element could do a formation takeoff but only the thunder-chickens are allowed to do a 4-ship form t/o. Secondly, the pictures for 3 in the slot are incorrect. 1 and 2 line up in echelon as pictured. 3 lines up in between 1/2 with 4 in echelon off him. In JP's initial 4 in the slot picture if you bring the #3 jet down to the bottom and swap 3 and 4 that would be the proper 3 in the slot line up. Static takeoffs are the wing standard at Shaw so we use this every day.

Magnum wrote:

First off to clear up any confusion, putting three in the slot ]...] Secondly, the pictures for 3 in the slot are incorrect. 1 and 2 line up in echelon as pictured. 3 lines up in between 1/2 with 4 in echelon off him. In JP's initial 4 in the slot picture if you bring the #3 jet down to the bottom and swap 3 and 4 that would be the proper 3 in the slot line up. Static takeoffs are the wing standard at Shaw so we use this every day.

Magnum is correct, but the ASCII is for #4 in the slot! The main difference between #4 or #3 in the slot is:

JpoLgr wrote:

"Four-in-the-Slot. Similar to three-in-the slot, except Number Three pulls forward to normal echelon position on Number Two and Number Four pulls forward so that Number Three's helmet is visible in front of Number Two's tail (over the spine)."

A visualization is always better Wink

----------FOUR SHIP #3 IN THE SLOT------------------------

Forum: F-16 Procedures

Three/four-in-the-slot line-up for take off