F-16 Reference
5th Gen Fighters
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griffins_9
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Posted: Aug 28, 2008 - 10:30 PM
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Newbie

Joined: Aug 28, 2008
Posts: 2
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while looking for old aircraft manuals (like F-86, B-57 etc) I came across the following site,
http://www.flight-manuals-on-cd.com/.
on this sight if you check the following link you would some very interesting F-16 manuals which I would want to buy being an aviation enthusiast. However i am not sure whether it is legal/prudent to buy or sell these given the current status of the aircraft. although the site does say that all the manuals are de-classified. the f-16 manuals i am refering to are,
http://www.flight-manuals-on-cd.com/F16.html
request advice from people here who should know. |
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Posted: Aug 30, 2008 - 4:59 AM
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Racer181
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Posted: Aug 28, 2008 - 11:10 PM
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Active member

Joined: Aug 07, 2005
Posts: 149
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| I don't think any of those manuals are classified, but if you feel that there is a threat to security you can contact Air Force OSI or Lockheed Martin about the issue. |
_________________ SrA Joe
Former Crew Chief A/C F-16 86-0258
181st Intelligence Wing "Racers"
181st Base Honor Guard
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JoeSambor
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Posted: Aug 28, 2008 - 11:18 PM
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Veteran

Joined: Aug 28, 2004
Posts: 372
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They aren't classified, but they are For Official Use Only. They are so old that they pretty much qualify as historical documents.
Best Regards, |
_________________ Joe Sambor
LM Aero Field Service Engineer
Woensdrecht Logistics Center, The Netherlands
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griffins_9
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Posted: Aug 29, 2008 - 12:32 PM
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Newbie

Joined: Aug 28, 2008
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JoeSambor wrote:
They aren't classified, but they are For Official Use Only. They are so old that they pretty much qualify as historical documents.
Best Regards,
even the Greek ones on Block 50??? This is news for me, perhaps you can explain for my benefit how the process for declassification of these type of manual runs? |
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JoeSambor
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Posted: Aug 29, 2008 - 02:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 28, 2004
Posts: 372
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| They ARE NOT classified. |
_________________ Joe Sambor
LM Aero Field Service Engineer
Woensdrecht Logistics Center, The Netherlands
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JoeSambor
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Posted: Aug 29, 2008 - 03:34 PM
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Veteran

Joined: Aug 28, 2004
Posts: 372
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A friend of mine who knows about these things reminded me that all of the foreign Flight Manuals contain the following statement:
DISCLOSURE NOTICE - This information is furnished on the conditions that it will not be released to another nation without the specific
authorization of the Department of the Air Force of the United States; it will be used for military purposes only; the recipient will report promptly to
the United States any known or suspected compromise; and the information will be provided substantially the same degree of security afforded it by
the Department of Defense of the United States. Also, regardless of any other markings on the document, it will not be downgraded or declassified
without the written approval of the originating US agency. Any request for this document should be referred to 501 ACSS/GFLB, 6089 Wardleigh
Road, Bldg. 1201, Hill AFB, UT 84056-5838.
All of the USAF FLight Manuals contain these statements:
DISTRIBUTION STATEMENT - Distribution is authorized to Department of Defense (DoD) components only (Direct Military Support). Other
requests for this document shall be referred to 501 ACSS/GFLB, 6089 Wardleigh Road, Bldg. 1201, Hill AFB, UT 84056-5838.
WARNING - This document contains technical data whose export is restricted by the Arms Export Control Act (Title 22, U.S.C. Sec. 2751 et seq) or
the Export Administration Act of 1979 as amended (Title 50, U.S.C. app. 2401 et seq). Violations of these export laws are subject to severe criminal
penalties. Disseminate in accordance with provisions of AFI 61-204.
So, should you buy these manuals online? You make the call.
Best Regards, |
_________________ Joe Sambor
LM Aero Field Service Engineer
Woensdrecht Logistics Center, The Netherlands
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ATFS_Crash
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Posted: Aug 29, 2008 - 07:53 PM
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Joined: Aug 15, 2006
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I think this could be possibly considered a security issue. Assuming that these aircraft or some similar aircraft are still in service, I would consider this to be somewhat sensitive information. Sure the information in the manuals are pretty old and much of the information is already available publicly; however I don’t think it is wise to make all the information publicly available or more widely known unless it has been cleared through proper channels.
I think this may not only be considered a security issue, it might be a copyright issue. Though much information can be obtained and is available to the public by the freedom of information act; that does not apply to things that are security sensitive and might be still under a commercial contract; therefore it might be considered a copyright violation.
(being a highly arrogant opinionated old fuddy-duddy) I would tend to be of the opinion that the site selling the manuals should be reported and let those that are better qualified decide if it is a violation and if it is worth pursuing. The cat is pretty much out of the bag in this case, however the situation might be used to make an example to prevent other similar indiscretions.
On a similar related tangent, I think there is a good World War II documentary/propaganda film that might show why I think this could be a security risk. “Resisting Enemy Interrogation”
In this propaganda film they gathered bits of information from several sources that all seemed very innocent; yet the information that they gained that seemed to be innocent and harmless was used tactically against us. Though the movie was fictional, the interrogation and intelligence gathering tactics were so accurate that when the Germans tried to use the same tactics on shot down imprisoned airmen that had saw the film, the air crews just laughed at the Germans and stuck to their name rank and serial number.
The movie demonstrates that public information like newspapers, slight physical evidence and minor indiscretions made by air crews can be used tactically by an enemy.
ATFS_Crash wrote:
There was an old World War II propaganda security film that I thought was pretty good. It was about some fictional pilots that were shot down after aborting a mission before reaching their target due to weather condition, and each of them revealed some apparently trivial unrelated information. But the Germans were asking questions in a apparently friendly innocent way, however it was very well-planned and intended. It was little things they let slip like there was a replacement crew member because the other had a slight head cold, and they aborted because of weather. The Germans were able to figure out it was a high-altitude mission and eliminate all the targets that had bad weather, and that let them narrow down possible targets. Eventually from all the questions they asked, they were able to figure out the intended target, so they were planning to concentrate their defenses because they knew the allies would try again.
Quote:
Many of FMPU's best films were little dramas which made their points by involving the audience in a story. One such example was "Resisting Enemy Interrogation", often cited as the best educational film to come out of the war.
The film featured a group of downed flyers who are captured by the Germans and brought to a chateau. They are separated from each other and are eventually tricked to reveal Air Force secrets. The film was so accurate and involving that a group of flyers, who had seen the film and were in fact later shot down and captured, revealed that life had imitated art. They too were brought to a chateau and when the Germans began their interrogation, it so resembled the film version, the airmen burst out laughing. The Germans' interrogation attempts proved unsuccessful.
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Among the five new prisoners arriving at Dulag Luft, a German Interrogation center for captured American air crews, are wounded flier Ralph Cole; Capt. James N. Spencer, the pilot commander; First Lieutenant Frank L. Williams, the co-pilot; Cooper, a frightened, young flier; and Technical Sergeant Alfred Mason. The Americans were captured in Italy, where their B-99 crashed while on a sortie to destroy German communication lines, and the German commander is frustrated by the discovery that much of their equipment, including bombs and identification papers, has been destroyed. The Nazis know that one of the crew is missing, but have few leads on the identities of the five prisoners, other than a newspaper clipping about Williams' father, who is the founder of the New England League Against Nazism. Initial interrogations by the Nazis reveal that Williams is talkative, and that Macson is fiercely loyal to his commander. Hoping to get more information by breaking the will of the weakest prisoner, the Nazi commander sends Cooper to solitary confinement. Spencer, meanwhile, is interrogated by the Nazis, but he refuses to divulge any information beyond his name, rank and serial number. Herr Mahler, a Red Cross representative, asks Spencer to sign admission papers, but Spencer knows it is a trick and refuses to complete the form. The Nazi commander abruptly ends his interrogation of Spencer by calling him the "uncooperative type." Later, Williams carelessly discusses Cole's identity with a man who introduces himself as a fellow American, and who offers Williams his friendship. From his hospital bed, Cole is tricked by a German nurse, who, while presenting herself as a victim of the Nazi regime, manages to extract information from the wounded soldier. Cole foolishly tells the nurse that his unit is from the fighter base at Naples, Italy, and speaks freely about his military service. Later, the major uses Spencer's admissions to coax Williams into talking in more detail about the fighting power of the B-99 bomber. From the information extracted from the prisoners thus far, the Nazis conclude that the Allies intend to strike an industrial center in a populated area. Mason provides the Nazis with further information about the B-99 and the mission when the major engages the technical sergeant in an argument about the plane's capabilities. When the Nazi commander threatens to harm Spencer if Mason does not give him more information, Mason panics and tells him more about the Air Force mission, including the information that it is to begin the following day. With the help of Cooper's inadvertent admission that the bombers will be carrying incendiary bombs and delayed-action bombs, the Nazis deduce that the mission will be hitting one of three targets in Budapest, Munich or Belgrade. Only hours before the start of the planned bombing mission, the Nazis determine that the target will be a Munich oil refinery. The information given to the Nazis by the airmen proves fatal for American fliers, as German fighter planes intercept and shoot down twenty-eight Allied bombers. Back at an Allied base, an American officer lectures his fliers on the dangers of speaking to Germans, and uses the failed mission as an example of the consequences of talking too much.
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Racer181
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Posted: Aug 29, 2008 - 11:17 PM
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Joined: Aug 07, 2005
Posts: 149
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To back up what ATFS_Crash said. Items like F-16.net, newspapers, magazines, news casts, and other things aviable to the public are considered Open Source Inteligence. I won't go into the rest of what we do with it. But if you think whatever info your posting is no big deal you make my job just that much easier granted i could care less about US aircraft and tactics since i they are no threat to me. all i'm saying is watch what is posted, if you think there is a problem report it. The authorities would rather that than find out after something has been leaked.
BTW the USAF watches this website like a hawk, or should i say EAGLE.
Have a bandit day  |
_________________ SrA Joe
Former Crew Chief A/C F-16 86-0258
181st Intelligence Wing "Racers"
181st Base Honor Guard
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