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Turk Air Force Opts for JSF Over Eurofighter

Turkey’s Air Force has selected the U.S.-led F-35 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF), now called the Lightning II, over Europe’s Eurofighter Typhoon for the NATO nation’s 15-year, $10 billion program to buy about 100 new-generation fighter aircraft, Turkish procurement and military officials said.

Full article: http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F= ... p;C=europe

Also see the F-16.net article: <a href="news_article2027.html">Israeli F-16s clash with German ship</a>

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Okay, let's try that again...

It is not very surprising that Turkey has elected to purchase the F-35 exclusively and opted against a mixed force of F-35s and Eurofighters. Hate to say it, but I told you so.

Despite the assertion of many, the F-35 excels not just as an AG platform, but it is superior to the EF as an AA platform as well principally due to its comprehensive stealth and unparalleled situation awareness. Unless it is either a political or cost decision, a Gen 4.5 aircraft will NEVER beat a Gen 5 aircraft in a foreign sales competition. Turkey has made the right choice once again, and it is to be congratulated for selecting the second best air superiority fighter ever built. Guess which one's the best? Wink

Good on Turkey. IMO, they will be better served with Lightning IIs.

F-16.net Webmaster Joined: May 23, 2003 Posts: 2351

Much better idesof! Wink

Lieven wrote:

Much better idesof! Wink

Yes, sorry about tht first post. I was very excited to read the story and the feeling of vindication came over me. Wink

Let's just say that I admit that the Eurofighter is a superior aircraft to any F-16 except Block 60, better than any F-15 except F-15C/E/K/S with APG-63(V)1 or (V)3, better certainly than any F-18 except the F/A-18E/F with AESA, and overwhelmingly superior to any operational Mig or Sukhoi.

However, with all due respect, it is an inferior platform in almost every respect to the F-35, to say nothing of the F-22. Considering that Turkey is trusting the defense of its airspace exclusively to the F-35 and not resorting to the EF for that purpose, I don't think I am telling tall tales here.

Armchair commentators will provide reasons and justification for Turkey's decision. However, the incontrovertible fact remains that it shut out the EF and chose the F-35. And in my opinion, it chose very wisely indeed.

Now I'm kind of hoping Greece gets the EF after all to see what happens between these two NATO allies over the Agean... Wink

And here we thought we would never see the day an EF would actually go up against an F-35 in AA combat...

idesof wrote:

Lieven wrote:

Much better idesof! Wink

Yes, sorry about tht first post. I was very excited to read the story and the feeling of vindication came over me. Wink

Let's just say that I admit that the Eurofighter is a superior aircraft to any F-16 except Block 60, better than any F-15 except F-15C/E/K/S with APG-63(V)1 or (V)3, better certainly than any F-18 except the F/A-18E/F with AESA, and overwhelmingly superior to any operational Mig or Sukhoi.

However, with all due respect, it is an inferior platform in almost every respect to the F-35, to say nothing of the F-22. Considering that Turkey is trusting the defense of its airspace exclusively to the F-35 and not resorting to the EF for that purpose, I don't think I am telling tall tales here.

Armchair commentators will provide reasons and justification for Turkey's decision. However, the incontrovertible fact remains that it shut out the EF and chose the F-35. And in my opinion, it chose very wisely indeed.

Now I'm kind of hoping Greece gets the EF after all to see what happens between these two NATO allies over the Agean... Wink

And here we thought we would never see the day an EF would actually go up against an F-35 in AA combat...

Have you seen the F-35 and EF in combat? Do you know anything about the EF other than published stats? Exports come down to a little bit more than the aircraft. Look at the English Electric Lightning (I'll use that as an example as you have said that Europeans can't build aircraft), its performance was unparalleled in its time. It was the first to supercruise, had an incredible speed and climb rate that even at todays standards are good. It even intercepted a U-2, and got up to altitudes of 88,000 ft. Did it get many exports? The RSAF was its only real customer and later Kuwait.

The EF and F-22 are in their own league at the top, with the F-22 being at the top of the league (as suggested so far). For Turkey the F-35 was more suited for them. And if you think I have a bias here because I'm British, BAE have a hand in both aircraft so it makes no difference. A good day for the F-35.

BAE may own the corporate bodies responsible in F-35 production, but the technology is strictly America... (Just to quell any thoughts that the EF is somehow superior or similar technologically just because BAE is involved in both programs).

The F-22A and F-35A/B/C both make up the top of the best TacAir anywhere. The F-22A being first, the F-35 being second... even if stealth werent an issue.

skrip00 wrote:

BAE may own the corporate bodies responsible in F-35 production, but the technology is strictly America... (Just to quell any thoughts that the EF is somehow superior or similar technologically just because BAE is involved in both programs).

The F-22A and F-35A/B/C both make up the top of the best TacAir anywhere. The F-22A being first, the F-35 being second... even if stealth werent an issue.

The F-35 and Typhoon seem to be a love hate thing around here. The Typhoon out performs the F-35 because they have different roles. The let down with the F-35 IMO is that it can't super cruise. But lately people have expressing negative views towards the F-35, I think the F-35 is an excellent platform, one of the best fighters and I have been defending it. But the F-35 is not a superior aircraft to the Typhoon. I don't see why people make these claims.

F-35 wasnt designed to supercruise... its an attack aircraft that inadvertantly kicks a$$ in AtA.

The Typhoon can with a decent loadout... but its still not stealthy.

The F-35 is the aircraft the RAF/RN would use on the opening day to know down key enemy air and ground assets (AWACS/Radars). Then used later on as a targetting hub due to its stealth and LPI AESA.

Newbie Joined: May 18, 2006 Posts: 4 Status: Offline

Maybe someone can correct me, but we, the United States, don't have the best relations with Turkey, do we??
I was actually surprised to hear that Turkey was being offered the F-35. I really don't feel comfortable giving Turkey that kind of technology. Besides, for the money, the Typhoon would better satisfy Turkey's defense needs.

Enthusiast Joined: Feb 20, 2004 Posts: 47 Status: Offline

Gordo wrote:

Maybe someone can correct me, but we, the United States, don't have the best relations with Turkey, do we??
I was actually surprised to hear that Turkey was being offered the F-35. I really don't feel comfortable giving Turkey that kind of technology. Besides, for the money, the Typhoon would better satisfy Turkey's defense needs.

Things have been a little strained since they (Turkey) refused bases in Eastern Turkey as jumping off points into Northern Iraq. They are also a little miffed over the Iraqi Kurds US protection; as Kurds are using this safe haven as bases for the Turkish Kurds rebellious streak. That was a horrible sentence, but I think you get the picture.

However, the relationship between Turkey and the EU is in pretty bad shape. It's a long story, but basically some of the Euro's don't want Turkey to be part of the "club."

I would not be surprised at all to find this was a definite EU snub on Turkey's part.

Gordo wrote:

Maybe someone can correct me, but we, the United States, don't have the best relations with Turkey, do we??
I was actually surprised to hear that Turkey was being offered the F-35. I really don't feel comfortable giving Turkey that kind of technology. Besides, for the money, the Typhoon would better satisfy Turkey's defense needs.

First of all, Turkey is one of the U.S.'s closest allies and vice-versa. What would make you think that relations are in any way strained? Just because a country is principally Islamic does not automatically make it an enemy of the U.S. (and no, I'm not Islamic, but I am also not a bigot).

Your final sentence is certainly a head-scratcher. What exactly do YOU know that Turkey doesn't regarding the F-35 vs. the EF? Maybe you should write the Turkish minister of defense and its air force and let them know "the Typhoon would better satisfy Turkey's defense needs." Rolling Eyes

Last edited by idesof on Oct 27, 2006 - 03:58 AM; edited 1 time in total

SpeakTheTruth wrote:

Have you seen the F-35 and EF in combat?

Have you? I haven't, but I can't wait Wink

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Do you know anything about the EF other than published stats?

I know that it keeps losing foreign sales competitions (South Korea, Singapore) and that countries keep changing their mind about ordering it (Greece, Austria). I know, scary: facts. They give me the shivers.

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Exports come down to a little bit more than the aircraft.

Yes, the people who fly them.

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Look at the English Electric Lightning (I'll use that as an example as you have said that Europeans can't build aircraft),

Never said that. They just haven't built a decent air superiority fighter in decades.

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its performance was unparalleled in its time. It was the first to supercruise, had an incredible speed and climb rate that even at todays standards are good. It even intercepted a U-2, and got up to altitudes of 88,000 ft. Did it get many exports? The RSAF was its only real customer and later Kuwait.

But could it get off the ground without refueling halfway through its take off roll?

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The EF and F-22 are in their own league at the top, with the F-22 being at the top of the league (as suggested so far).

Not even the same ballpark. Not even the same game.

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For Turkey the F-35 was more suited for them.

Yes, the Turks have a nasty tendency to prefer superior aircraft over inferior airplanes.

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And if you think I have a bias here because I'm British, BAE have a hand in both aircraft so it makes no difference. A good day for the F-35.

Jim Smith who screwed the tailplane on the F-35 also had a hand in it. Hardly makes it "his" plane...

SpeakTheTruth wrote:

The F-35 and Typhoon seem to be a love hate thing around here.

Agree. Love the F-35, hate the EF.

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The Typhoon out performs the F-35

Premise... Confused

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because they have different roles.

Conclusion??? Shocked

A little logic 101 for you. Using your logic I could say, "A cessna outperforms an F-22 because they have different roles." Yours would be called an "invalid" argument.

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The let down with the F-35 IMO is that it can't super cruise.

I know what you mean. For me, the let down with the EF is that it can't haul an M-1 tank. Or fire lasers. Or land on the water. Shame.

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But lately people have expressing negative views towards the F-35,

Not really. It's been happening for quite some time.

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I think the F-35 is an excellent platform, one of the best fighters and I have been defending it.

Very gracious of you. Many thanks.

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But the F-35 is not a superior aircraft to the Typhoon.

If by Typhoon you mean a weather disturbance similar to a hurricane except in the Pacific instead of the Atlantic you're right: F-35s weren't meant to shoot down weather phenomena. Now, if by Typhoon you mean the Eurofighter, well, still waiting for that logic I talked about earlier...

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I don't see why people make these claims.

Hmm... Let's see: perhaps because Turkey just elected to get a grand total of 0 (zero) EFs and 100 or more F-35s? And I wonder whether Turkey considered the fact that Greece signed up for (but perhaps won't purchase after all) a couple of EF squadrons. You think Turkey thought of that? Is there perhaps some remote chance that they may have considered that even just a smidge? You think? No, really, you think???

Active Member Joined: Nov 22, 2004 Posts: 134

idesof wrote:

Let's just say that I admit that the Eurofighter is a superior aircraft to any F-16 except Block 60, better than any F-15 except F-15C/E/K/S with APG-63(V)1 or (V)3, better certainly than any F-18 except the F/A-18E/F with AESA, and overwhelmingly superior to any operational Mig or Sukhoi.

Well, the Typhoon is designed to be kinematically superior to any legacy "fourth-generation" fighter. While we haven't yet seen thoroughly convincing anecdotal evidence of such capability, there is no evidence that I'm aware of to the contrary, and USAF General John Jumper--the only person on the planet to have flown both the Raptor and the Typhoon so far--seemed quite impressed with the Typhoon. Obviously, he had to be nice, but his words were very complimentary, and the associated articles, accurately or otherwise, tend to give the impression that the two aircraft are "comparable" with the exception of stealth and supercruise.

Giving the Typhoon the benefit of the doubt, while it does not yet have comparable strike capabilities as late-model Vipers, Strike Eagles, and Hornets, and its sensor capabilities will suffer to some degree (probably not as much as people might think) in comparison to fighters equipped with the new AESA radars, the Typhoon should outclass all of these fighters in flight performance (especially at supersonic speeds) and RCS (with the possible exception of the Super Hornet). That's about all we can generally guesstimate, in my opinion, based on the limited information we have.

idesof wrote:

However, with all due respect, it is an inferior platform in almost every respect to the F-35, to say nothing of the F-22.

The F-35 will undoubtedly have superior stealth and will most likely have superior sensors, which will give it a decisive edge against the Typhoon in the air, but the rest is still a bit sketchy at this time.

idesof wrote:

Armchair commentators will provide reasons and justification for Turkey's decision. However, the incontrovertible fact remains that it shut out the EF and chose the F-35. And in my opinion, it chose very wisely indeed.

Now I'm kind of hoping Greece gets the EF after all to see what happens between these two NATO allies over the Agean... Wink

And here we thought we would never see the day an EF would actually go up against an F-35 in AA combat...

You're right, there could be any number of different reasons that contributed to their decision, but assuming they even gave a thought to the scenario that you've described (it's hard to believe that they wouldn't have!) they only had one obvious choice.

SpeakTheTruth wrote:

Have you seen the F-35 and EF in combat? Do you know anything about the EF other than published stats?

Admittedly, there is no way to argue against your statements in any definitive manner until these aircraft do face their adversaries or each other in combat (two potentially very different scenarios), but my question is: do you believe that the F-35's level of stealth, whatever that turns out to be, will give it a major advantage?

SpeakTheTruth wrote:

Exports come down to a little bit more than the aircraft. Look at the English Electric Lightning (I'll use that as an example as you have said that Europeans can't build aircraft), its performance was unparalleled in its time. It was the first to supercruise, had an incredible speed and climb rate that even at todays standards are good. It even intercepted a U-2, and got up to altitudes of 88,000 ft. Did it get many exports? The RSAF was its only real customer and later Kuwait.

It's true enough that the "best" of any type of thing doesn't always win, regarding either business or real world applications.

SpeakTheTruth wrote:

The EF and F-22 are in their own league at the top, with the F-22 being at the top of the league (as suggested so far).

With regard to combat aircraft cladistics, my current working assumption, which is always subject to change, is that the Typhoon and Raptor are in their own league regarding fighter/interceptor flight performance, while Sparky and the Raptor will be in their own separate league of true stealth fighters (as well as in the same general group as the Nighthawk and B-2).

SpeakTheTruth wrote:

For Turkey the F-35 was more suited for them. And if you think I have a bias here because I'm British, BAE have a hand in both aircraft so it makes no difference. A good day for the F-35.

Ah, but the F-35 is fundamentally an American design, while the Typhoon is primarily British in origin. Not that I'm accusing you of anything, just taking away some of your proof, for what it's worth. Wink

skrip00 wrote:

BAE may own the corporate bodies responsible in F-35 production, but the technology is strictly America... (Just to quell any thoughts that the EF is somehow superior or similar technologically just because BAE is involved in both programs).

That's generally true, and in cases where very sensitive technology is involved, even if, say, BAE purchased an American supplier, the same rules still apply regardless--in this case, it would basically be Americans working on an American project while keeping secrets from their new British parent corporations. National security definitely trumps corporate ownership, except in cases where a decision is made by the government to share or cooperate fully in developing certain technologies, of course. I'm not familiar with the details, but there is probably a substantial amount of the latter involved in the F-35 program, although it is still an American design overall, while on the other hand, the Raptor is purely an American program, regardless of where the parent corporations of the various subcontractors reside (except for certain parts that are contracted out to non-American companies, such as the HUD, obviously).

SpeakTheTruth wrote:

The F-35 and Typhoon seem to be a love hate thing around here. The Typhoon out performs the F-35 because they have different roles. The let down with the F-35 IMO is that it can't super cruise. But lately people have expressing negative views towards the F-35, I think the F-35 is an excellent platform, one of the best fighters and I have been defending it. But the F-35 is not a superior aircraft to the Typhoon. I don't see why people make these claims.

They certainly seem to be superior in different areas of fighter performance, and both should be an overmatch for their current adversaries. Obviously, the British Ministry Of Defense believes that both aircraft have their place, with the Typhoon as the primary air superiority and interception platform. With its superior sensors (always being improved), avionics, RCS, missile range (working on it), and flight performance in comparison to that of the projected threat, it gives up nothing to the enemy, which can be a mighty comforting thing, whether or not it's necessary. That's one reason the USAF wants the F-22 so badly, even though they'll have the F-35. Note that this does not necessarily match my own personal views in every way--it's just one particular point of view that I think some people and organizations have.

skrip00 wrote:

F-35 wasnt designed to supercruise... its an attack aircraft that inadvertantly kicks a$$ in AtA.

The Typhoon can with a decent loadout... but its still not stealthy.

The F-35 is the aircraft the RAF/RN would use on the opening day to know down key enemy air and ground assets (AWACS/Radars). Then used later on as a targetting hub due to its stealth and LPI AESA.

Yeah, we can't completely ignore the issue of survivability, and ultimately I don't think that the RAF can either, whatever their intentions may be at the moment. The USAF's high performance fighter, the F-22, happens to be even more survivable than the F-35, and it will definitely be used to "kick down the door" on opening day, but the RAF will make do with whatever they have, and that might just turn out to be the F-35. The Typhoon will do its part against enemy fighters, of course, but will be restricted until the deadliest SAM threats are eliminated, and that will most likely be a job for the F-35.

Gordo wrote:

Maybe someone can correct me, but we, the United States, don't have the best relations with Turkey, do we??
I was actually surprised to hear that Turkey was being offered the F-35.

Right now, our relationship could be better and has been in the past, but we've been close allies for a long, long time, and I don't see that changing.

Gordo wrote:

I really don't feel comfortable giving Turkey that kind of technology.

As long as their secular government is stable, we have little to worry about. Of course, nothing in this world is a sure bet, and I don't blame you for being concerned, but honestly, it hadn't crossed my mind until now.

Gordo wrote:

Besides, for the money, the Typhoon would better satisfy Turkey's defense needs.

Why?

AJAX wrote:

Things have been a little strained since they (Turkey) refused bases in Eastern Turkey as jumping off points into Northern Iraq. They are also a little miffed over the Iraqi Kurds US protection; as Kurds are using this safe haven as bases for the Turkish Kurds rebellious streak. That was a horrible sentence, but I think you get the picture.

I don't think we're too sore at them for not doing our bidding this time around, obviously looking out for their own interests. They might be a little sore at us right now, that's true, but it's expected and not a huge deal in the big scheme of things, in my opinion.

idesof wrote:

SpeakTheTruth wrote:

Have you seen the F-35 and EF in combat?

Have you? I haven't, but I can't wait Wink

That's the spirit! Very Happy

Actually, digressing for a moment, I'd love to see the Typhoon take on the Su-30MKI next year in India, although we have to remember that the purpose of such exercises is not to beat up on one another. Aw, shucks! Wink

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