I was at Nellis as well. I am now convinced the Raptor has an anti-gravity device the way that baby can hover and dance around. Wow. AS another poster pointed out, when the Eagle was putting on his show, Dozer was behind the crowd practicing...well not really behind the crowd, because a large part of the crowd was turned around to watch it instead of the Eagle (Which by the way was the last ever Eagle demo and that particular pilot's fini flight before retiring...what a way to go out!)
Last Eagle demo? That doesnt sound right.
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Roscoe
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 05:13 AM
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Thats what the announcer said. With the Langley unit that does the demos switching to the F-22, there are no more demos scheduled.
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Spooky
Posted: Nov 15, 2006 - 04:14 PM
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There were two F-15C Demo Teams; the F-15 West Coast Team is attached to the 33rd Fighter Wing based at Eglin AFB and the East Coast Team was attached to the 1st Fighter Wing based at Langley AFB. There are a total of seven single aircraft Demonstration Teams assigned to Air Combat Command.
The East Coast Team F-15 demo team website is now gone due to the F-22 switch, so that leaves,
One of the requirements of the F-22 is that its LO features are easy to maintain...
Easy my foot. Compared to what?
How about a F-117? B-2? The Raptor is very easy to take care of.
-Check
I wish I could say more than simply "I disagree". Are you a maintainer? Pilot? Lockheed employee?
JCSVT
Posted: Nov 17, 2006 - 03:09 AM
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staphory wrote:
I wish I could say more than simply "I disagree". Are you a maintainer? Pilot? Lockheed employee?
Actually there is a Raptor maintainer here and he has said the same. He's in one of the recent threads.
Scorpion1alpha
Posted: Nov 17, 2006 - 12:50 PM
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checksixx wrote:
Dozer?? You sure it was him flying and not his replacement? He should be in Alaska by now.
-Check
It was Dozer at Nellis this year.
staphory
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 - 10:13 AM
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JCSVT wrote:
staphory wrote:
I wish I could say more than simply "I disagree". Are you a maintainer? Pilot? Lockheed employee?
Actually there is a Raptor maintainer here and he has said the same. He's in one of the recent threads.
I am a Raptor maintainer myself. I was only asking the guy what he does in order to understand where he is coming from.
Early in my career I worked on the F-4G in Germany. I was one of the las sheetmetal guys to be part of an AMU. One of the best experiences im my career by the way! Anyway, if you had asked everyone how hard it was to maintain the Phantom you would have gotten different answers based on AFSC. All of the ECM guys we had thought it was pretty easy. The crew chiefs and sheetmetal guys would have told you something else.
Same situation for the Raptor. Some of the guys in the AMU say it's easy. Come on down to the LO shop and ask around...depending on who you are talking to, you'll get everything from "it's OK" to unprintable.
I am in no way attacking anyone. Just seeking to understand thier perspective.
Spooky
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 - 03:26 PM
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Are you at Tyndal? It would have been sad working there last spring working on the F-22 as the very last of the F-4G were shot down as drones. I saw there is one G left there for pulling parts. Ecpecially if the F-22 shot the last one:)
staphory
Posted: Nov 18, 2006 - 04:32 PM
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Spooky wrote:
Are you at Tyndal? It would have been sad working there last spring working on the F-22 as the very last of the F-4G were shot down as drones. I saw there is one G left there for pulling parts. Ecpecially if the F-22 shot the last one:)
No, I'm at Langley. I went to Tyndal a few years ago and saw a bird that I remembered. I was happy and sad all at the same time. I hope she went out well.
toan
Posted: Nov 22, 2006 - 02:37 PM
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F-22A
1. APG-77 Radar:
It has been declared to be able "track" the target of RCS = 1m2 at the range of 200 km+.
2. Minimal frontal RCS: Marble size, or around 0.0002 ~ 0.0005 m2.
3. Effective range of its BVRAAMs in supersonic head-to-head engagement at medial to high altitude:
AIM-120C6 (now): 81 ~ 92.5 km (maximal range), 55 ~ 75 km (maximal effective range), 35 ~ 50 km (NEZ range).
AIM-120D (2013): 111 km (maximal range), 75 ~ 90 km (maximal effective range), 45 ~ 60 km (NEZ range).
F-35
1. APG-81 Radar:
It has been declared to be able "track" the target of RCS = 1m2 at the range of 160 km+.
2. Minimal frontal RCS: Golf ball size, or around 0.0012 ~ 0.0015 m2.
3. Effective range of its BVRAAMs in supersonic head-to-head engagement at medial to high altitude:
AIM-120D (2013): 111 km (maximal range), 75 ~ 90 km (maximal effective range), 45 ~ 60 km (NEZ range).
EF-2000
1. Captor-M Radar:
It has been declared to be able "track" the target of standard fighter (RCS = 5m2) at the range of 161 ~ 185 km+. With the help of AESA upgrading, the manufacturer has hinted that the effective detecting / tracking range of CAPTOR-E may increase 50% at least.
2. Minimal frontal RCS:
0.1 ~ 0.5 m2 should be the most reasonable range of estimation according to the military information that I've collected.
3. Effective range of its BVRAAMs in supersonic head-to-head engagement at medial to high altitude:
AIM-120B (now): 74 km (maximal range), 50 ~ 60 km (maximal effective range), 30 ~ 40 km (NEZ range).
AIM-120C5 (2008): 81 ~ 92.5 km (maximal range), 55 ~ 75 km (maximal effective range), 35 ~ 50 km (NEZ range).
1. Zaslon-M Radar:
It has been declared to be able "detect" the target of F-15 / Su-27 classs (RCS = 10 ~ 25 m2) at the range of 400 km+.
2. Minimal frontal RCS:
Unknown, but I see no reason that it can be smaller than F-15 / Su-27.
3. Effective range of its BVRAAMs in supersonic head-to-head engagement at medial to high altitude:
R-77: 50 ~ 80 km (maximal effective range).
R-77M: 80 ~ 120 km (maximal effective range).
R-33: 160 km (maximal effective range)
R-37: 300 km+ (maximal effective range)
Su-35BM, post-2012 ~ 2015
1. IRBIS-E Radar:
It has been declared to be able "detect" the target of RCS = 3 m2 at the range of 350 ~ 400 km+, or the target of RCS = 0.01 m2 at the range of 90 km+.
2. Minimal frontal RCS: may be reduced to 1 ~ 3 m2 with the help of RAM.
3. Effective range of its BVRAAMs in supersonic head-to-head engagement at medial to high altitude:
R-37: 300 km+ (maximal effective range for anti-AWACS mission)
KS-172: 400 km+ (maximal effective range for anti-AWACS mission)
According to the data and estimation mentioned above and the basic formula for RCS:
F-22A with APG-77 shall be able to track MIG-31M at the range of 350 ~ 450 km+, and Su-35BM at the range of 200 ~ 265 km+.
F-35A with APG-81 shall be able to track MIG-31M at the range of 280 ~ 360 km+, and Su-35BM at the range of 160 ~ 210 km+.
EF-2000 with CAPTOR-M shall be able to track MIG-31M at the range of more than 190 ~ 275 km, and Su-35BM at the range of more than 108 ~ 163 km.
EF-2000 with CAPTOR-E shall be able to track MIG-31M at the range of more than 285 ~ 410 km, and Su-35BM at the range of more than 162 ~ 285 km.
MIG-31M with Zaslon-M shall be able to detect / track F-22A at the range of around 21 ~ 35 km / 13 ~ 25 km; and F-35A at the range of around 33 ~ 45 km / 20 ~ 32 km; and EF-2000 at the range of around 100 ~ 190 km / 60 ~ 130 km.
Su-35BM with IRBIS-E shall be able to detect / track F-22A at the range of around 34 ~ 42 km / 20 ~ 30 km; and F-35A at the range of around 53 ~ 56 km / 32 ~ 40 km; and EF-2000 at the range of around 160 ~ 240 km / 95 ~ 170 km.
Pilotasso
Posted: Nov 22, 2006 - 09:51 PM
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Interesting post Toan, where did you find all that info?
A note on the Mig-31:
R-77M development program has stalled. And unlikely to ever be ressurrected. R-37 Is not yet in service and the Mig iself hast entered service yet. Only a hand full of prototypes exist, their final config is not yet determined but rumour has it that the russians are trying to get a compromise instead of all bells and whistles due to fund limitations.
Another note on Su-35.
Su-35 doesnt exist as an operational fighter and the planes that did exist were prototypes. That was years ago. Current configuration would be different now than the one proposed then. The most similar configuration to the Su-35 youll ever find are the indian Su-30MKI wich uses some of the equipment researched on the Su-35 program. I dont recall the exact figures but they were nowhere near the ones you present.
EDIT: reading carefully your post, some of the detection figures you present seem way exagerated (max range). At those distances youll only pick up airliners. Military aircraft I expect to be detected at a small fraction of those numbers specialy the low observable fighters.
toan
Posted: Nov 23, 2006 - 01:11 AM
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Quote:
Interesting post Toan, where did you find all that info?
A: AW&ST, IDR, AFM, and some manufacturers' public declaration.
Quote:
R-77M development program has stalled. And unlikely to ever be ressurrected.
A:
The ramjet-powered R-77 program (named as R-77M at first) has been stalled. However, a new rocket-powered R-77 variant with range improvement still keeps going and takes the name of R-77M.
Quote:
R-37 Is not yet in service and the Mig iself hast entered service yet. Only a hand full of prototypes exist, their final config is not yet determined but rumour has it that the russians are trying to get a compromise instead of all bells and whistles due to fund limitations.
A:
Well, F-22A + AIM-120D, F-35, EF-2000 + Meteor, and Su-35BM are also not in service yet either ~ The comparison that I mentioned above is mainly for the time of around 2012 to 2015.
Quote:
Su-35 doesnt exist as an operational fighter and the planes that did exist were prototypes. That was years ago. Current configuration would be different now than the one proposed then.................
A:
The Su-35BM that I mentioned above is not the original Su-35 plan in 1990s, but a major upgrading project for Russian AF's Flanker fleets after 2012~2015.
EDIT: reading carefully your post, some of the detection figures you present seem way exagerated (max range). At those distances youll only pick up airliners. Military aircraft I expect to be detected at a small fraction of those numbers specialy the low observable fighters.
A:
1. The declaration that APG-77 / APG-81 can track the target of RCS = 1m2 at the range of more than 200 km / 160 km was from AW&ST. And in a recent exercise, USAF declared that APG-77s of Raptor had provided the long range SA of AWACS class for Raptor's traditional accompanies (F-15C.........).
F-22s' systems, radar transfer data to fighters in exercise
Aerospace Daily & Defense Report
10/03/2006
STEALTHY AWACS:
The F-22's operational debut is winning fans and the stealthy fighter is shaking off its reputation as a Cold War anachronism. In the recent Northern Watch exercises in Alaska, less-advanced fighters received situational awareness and targeting information from F-22 intelligence-gathering systems and long-range radar. Once the F-22s had expended their missiles, "they remained in the middle of the battle acting as [a stealthy] AWACS," says a Washington-based observer. The F-22's ability to gather and dispense intelligence from the center of the battle - and a similar capability projected for the F-35 - was a major factor in Air Force Secretary Michael Wynne's decision this year to cancel the large E-10 multisensor command and control aircraft, which - despite its advanced, long-range MP-RTIP radar that can detect stealthy cruise missiles - would have to stay well out of the battle area.
2. The declaration that CAPTOR-M can track the target of RCS = 5m2 (MIG-29) at the range of more than 161 ~ 185 km is from a UK test pilots according to a report of AFM and an article from Mr.Billsweetman.
New details about [RLSU] Irbis-E for the fighter Su-35
Recently Tikhomirov NIIP released sufficiently comprehensive information about the developed by it new RLSU (radar system for control) phased antenna array Irbis, intended for the application on the new modifications of the fighters of family Su-27 - first of all on the aircraft Su-35 and the modernised fighter Su-27SM2. Last year the enterprise designed advertising book on RLSU Irbis-E. which now makes it possible to describe about some design features and possibilities of new radar.
RLSU Irbis, development of which is conducted in NIIP from 2004 under chief designer Vladimir Zagorodniy's leadership on the basis of the experience of creation RLS with the passive phased arrays 'Bars' and 'Osa', is intended for the decision in the composition of the integrated complex BREO of the carrier aircraft of the wide circle of tasks by detection and accompaniment of air, ground and surface targets, to the determination of their [gosprinadlezhnosti], to the identification of class [itipa] are air; targets, to the determination of a quantity of aerial targets in the group, to the forming of the radar trace of the underlying surface (actual chart area) in the modes of low, average and high resolution, to information input of a low-altitude flight with flight around and turning movement of obstacles, correction of navigation systems, to the measurement of distance, to the missile guidance with the radar homing heads ([RGS]), etc.
Structurally [RLSU] Irbis-E is multifunctional radar system X band with the passive phased array. Placed on the two-axis hydraulic drive (along the azimuth and bank), with the use of a promising computing system EKVS-E BTsVM Solo -35. Antenna system on the base passive phased array with a diameter of 900 mm with the vertical polarisation of wave and the switch time during electronic control 0,4 ms scans with the electronic beam steering along the azimuth and the angle of elevation in the sectors not less than 60～. Furthermore, two-stage electrohydraulic drive mechanically turns antenna in azimuth to the bearing to 60～ and in bank to the bearing of 120～. Therefore, the maximum angle of deflection of ray with respect to the azimuth during electronic control and mechanical corrective turn of antenna increases to 120～. In this case the vertical polarisation of wave can be changed to horizontal for a improvement in the conditions of observing the surface targets.
The transmitter, made on the base of the solid-state master oscillator Oliva and chains from two traveling-wave power amplifiers of the type Chelnok, ensures the maximum peak power at the survey frequencies not less than 20 kW with the average power 5 kW, or the average discrete continuous power of the transfer at frequencies of illumination not less than 2 kW. Four-channel receiver on the base of the low-noise intake amplifier assumes and primarily converts HF-signal with the factor of noise 3.5 dB. Digital processing of the signals accepted it occurs in the programmable signal processor on the base BTsVM 'Solo -35.01', and data processing and control of work [RLSU] - in BTsVM 'Solo-35.02', which together form BTSVS EKVS-E.
With the development RLSU 'Irbis-E' is used a number of the already well developed devices from the composition RLSU Bars, used on the aircraft Su-30MKI. Their number includes the synchroniser, LF and SHF-receivers, the master oscillator. Two-stage drive EGSP-27 RLSU Irbis-E is further development of the single power drive Bars - EGSP-6A. The new passive phased array is developed on the basis of technical and tecjnological decisions, approved with the development of Osa and Bars phased arrays. The amplifier of transmitter is developed on the base of the output amplifier of power on the base of the travelling-wave tube Chelnok, created within the framework of the program BRLS N011M (prototype Bars) and passed inspection in the composition BREO experimental aircraft Su-27M ∮712 in the stage of flight design tests, after ensuring a notable increase in the range of system.
RLSU Irbis-E can locate and simultaneously track up to 30 aerial targets with the retention of the continuity of the survey of space (track while scan), ensure the simultaneous fire of two targets with two rockets with semi-active RGS and up to eight targets by eight rockets with active RGS, in such cases to four targets at the distance of more than 300 km. In the mode 'air-surface' the complex ensures the mapping of land and sea surfaces and the detection of ground targets in the modes of survey with real beam (low resolution) with the Doppler sharpening (medium resolution) and SAR mode (modes of high and superhigh resolution). Range of detection of aerial targets RCS 3 sq m in the head-on courses in RLSU Irbis-E comprises not less than 350-400 km, while in the overtaking courses - not less than 150 km (with the height of target 10 km and more). To detect 'stealthy' targets RCS 0.01sq m station can at the distances to 90 km. Resolution during the identification of dense multiple target (at a distance of 50 km) it comprises: on the distance - 50-100 m, on the velocity - 5 m/s and on the angular coordinates - 2,5～.
Being the logical development Bars, RLSU Irbis, thus, has considerably higher characteristics: the extended (more than doubled) zone the working of frequencies, the increased from 70 to 120 deg zone of detection and accompaniment of aerial targets along the azimuth, the considerably increased range, the improved jamming invulnerability, etc through these indices Irbis is located on the level of the most up-to-date foreign developments in this region, exceeding the majority of American and West European RLS with the passive and the active phased arrays and practically without being inferior to the most perfect system of this class - RLS AN/APG-77 of American fighters F-22.
Over-exaggerated advertisements?? perhaps, Nothing more than BS?? maybe. However, All of these stuffs that I mentioned above were from the manufacturers' and USAF / RAF's declaration, not from my personal imagination.
The declaration of Manufacturers and Air-Force:
USAF:
"With the help of AESA radar and NG data fusion / link technology, our F-22A and F-35 shall be a invincible and numerous AWACS fleet with stealthy capability and detection range of E-2C/E-3C class at least (or even better ~ I don't know if E-2C, or even E-3C nowadays can detect the target of RCS = 1 m2 class 200 km away. However, APG-77 can "track" this kind of target at the range more than 200 km away). Therefore, there's no need to develop and buy E-10 now."
Russian fighter's radar manufacturer:
"Our newest phase array radar (IRBIS-E) will have 20 Kw class maximal output (4 times of APG-71) and the similar detecting / tracking range performance as APG-77."
RAF / EADS / BAES:
"The CAPTOR-M now is able to track MIG-29 (RCS = 5m2) at the range more than 161 ~ 185 km away. It is very impressive for a traditional fighter's radar, however it is relatively shabby when comparing with the NG AESA radars such as APG-77, APG-81, and IRBIS-E. However, after incorporating AESA technology into CAPTOR formally in 2014 (CAPTOR-E), we shall be able to chase them up..........."
Last edited by toan on Nov 23, 2006 - 03:37 AM; edited 4 times in total
PhillyGuy
Posted: Nov 23, 2006 - 02:17 AM
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Umm... Doesn't the current AIM-120C-7 have a longer range than the C-5? And isn't the AMRAAM-D supposed to have a 50% increase in range Toan? Your figures don't represent that.
_________________ "Man will never be free until the last king is strangled with the entrails of the last priest."
toan
Posted: Nov 23, 2006 - 02:51 AM
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RAF has test-fired a AIM-120C5 from a Tornado F3 this year, and according to the declaration of RAF, its effective range is about 10% longer than the previous AIM-120B it used.
According to the upgrading plan of AIM-120 which was set by USA in the end of 1990s, the improvement of AIM-120's effective range shall be:
AIM-120B in late 1990s:
74 km (maximal range), 50 ~ 60 km (maximal effective range), 30 ~ 40 km (NEZ range).
1st stage of upgrading (2005 --> AIM-120C5/6 or AIM-120C7):
* 25% increase in effective range comparing with AMRAAM in late 1990s.
* 92.5 km (maximal range), 62.5 ~ 75 km (maximal effective range), 37.5 ~ 50 km (NEZ range).
2nd stage of upgrading (2010 --> AIM-120D):
* 50% increase in effective range comparing with AMRAAM in late 1990s.
* 111 km (maximal range), 75 ~ 90 km (maximal effective range), 45 ~ 60 km (NEZ range).
3rd stage of upgrading (2015 --> AIM-120D2?):
* 100% increase in effective range comparing with AMRAAM in late 1990s.
* 148 km (maximal range), 100 ~ 120 km (maximal effective range), 60 ~ 80 km (NEZ range).
Pilotasso
Posted: Nov 23, 2006 - 12:26 PM
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I take your point about your sources. But another thing that seems to be off the reality are those NEZ figures. Take in consideration that AMRAAM class missiles burn for about 6-7 seconds. They are assisted by gravity after the motor is burned out from then on. But NEZ zone also implicates that the missile will still catch the target no matter what it does, including turn tail and run immidatly. Well, 40km to 80km on your figures chasing a fast retreating targets seems to be something out of star wars. The combat records Im aware off, show AMRAAM shots preferrably taken under 12 miles sometimes less, 6-10 miles against non retreating targets. Indicating that the NEZ is probably about that range (the launcher was higher than the target).
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(Which by the way was the last ever Eagle demo and that particular pilot's fini flight before retiring...what a way to go out!)
