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skrip00
PostPosted: Sep 28, 2006 - 06:47 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/busin ... ref=slogin

F-22A has multi-year contracts!

This opens up the possibility of production past 2011 and even more aircraft to the current 183.

381 or bust! Go USAF go!

Quote:
Air Force Jet Wins Battle in Congress
By Leslie Wayne
Published: September 28, 2006


The F-22 Raptor fighter jet, the United States Air Force’s most expensive weapon, is designed for global air dominance. But its biggest battles have not been in the skies, but in the corridors of power in Washington, where it has just taken on Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld and Washington budget-cutters — and won.
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Soaring Cost, Smaller Order

Since coming into office, Mr. Rumsfeld and the administration have tried to rein in the costs of the $65 billion fighter jet program, which has been two decades in the making and has suffered one cost overrun after another.

But their efforts were rebuffed this week by the powerful F-22 lobby, a combination of the Air Force, Lockheed Martin, which makes the fighter jet, and their allies in Congress.

The Senate is scheduled to vote this week on the $447 billion Pentagon budget for 2007, which contains a measure promoted by backers of the F-22 that could extend the jet’s production run beyond its 2011 termination date and reduce Congressional oversight of the program.

On Monday, after negotiations in a Senate-House conference committee, the F-22 measure was put into the final Pentagon budget, which the full House passed on Tuesday.

The measure could open the door to additional F-22 purchases above the 183 budgeted by the administration and could extend the life of the program a few years by using a multiyear procurement contract rather than subjecting the F-22 to annual Congressional review.

The Air Force thus far has taken possession of 74 F-22’s, which are being sent to bases across the country. The plane has not been used in combat yet. Six more are in production. Lockheed plans to make 20 to 25 a year between now and 2011.

The plane’s “fly-away” cost, equivalent to the sticker price in a car, is $130 million. But if development costs are included and spread over the 183 planes in the program, the total cost to the government rises to $350 million per plane.

Critics say the F-22 represents technological overkill at a time when United States air superiority is unquestioned and the nature of warfare has changed. It was originally designed for aerial combat against the Soviets. Today, one of its biggest critics is the Government Accountability Office, which in July issued a report saying, “The F-22 acquisition history is a case study in increased cost and schedule inefficiencies.”

Still, even these critics concede that the plane is an engineering marvel, a Maserati of the skies. It can fly at 60,000 feet, twice as high as any other plane. Its cruising speed is Mach 2 and its top speed is a Pentagon secret. And its radar-eluding stealth technology allows it to fly at supersonic speeds — invisibly.

The plane, however, has suffered embarrassing glitches. This year, an F-22 pilot became trapped in his jet and had to be rescued from the cockpit with chainsaws. The landing gear failed in another instance, causing the aircraft to fall on its nose. Structural cracks have also been reported.

Even as strong a critic of wasteful Pentagon spending as Senator John McCain, the Arizona Republican, who will become the next chairman of the Senate Armed Services Committee, as well as the committee’s current chairman, Senator John W. Warner, a Virginia Republican, could not defeat the F-22 lobby.

The two senators were able to extract some concessions in the closed-door House-Senate conference committee. But they could not muster the support to defeat the multiyear contract, in which F-22’s would be acquired in a series of three-year contracts rather than annually.

“The F-22 lobby is an extraordinary juggernaut and they fought to the death on this one,” said Danielle Brian, executive director of the Project on Government Oversight, a Washington research group. “It is astonishing in that the lobby can take on the most powerful in Washington, including the president, and win.”

Loren B. Thompson, a military analyst at the Lexington Institute, a research group, added that “the Air Force is dominated by fighter pilots and they would give up anything to keep the F-22.”

The Air Force would like to see scores more F-22’s than the 183 it has been promised — it says it needs at least 381.

Originally, the Air Force wanted 750 planes. Even though that number has been cut sharply, the Air Force has continue to push for more, aided by what Washington insiders call the Iron Triangle — a politically powerful combination of military contractors and their allies inside the Pentagon and Congress.

For instance, the multiyear contract was passed by the Senate in the summer, 70 to 28, before being sent to conference committee. The language in the Senate measure was identical to a draft proposal written by a lobbyist for Lockheed Martin and given to members of Congress.

Before the Senate considered the issue, an e-mail message was circulated by Lockheed to Senate members, saying, “Please vote ‘yes’ on the proposed Chambliss Amendment” to permit the multiyear contract. After the e-mail message was sent, the amendment was introduced by Senator Saxby Chambliss, Republican of Georgia, whose district includes an F-22 assembly plant.
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Soaring Cost, Smaller Order

“What happened was predictable,” said Christopher Bolkcom, a military specialist at the Congressional Research Service. “Everyone could see the opponents of the measure were swimming upstream. The Air Force is still chipping away, trying to get more planes.”

In fact, Senator Warner accused Senator Chambliss and Lockheed of doing an end-run around his committee, where such important measures are typically decided. The Armed Services Committee opposed the measure.

“We are facing here a rather interesting chapter of a very significant and important defense contractor trying to get through this body a decision, which is in violation of statute and overrides the judgment of the majority of the members of the Armed Services Committee,” Senator Warner said on the Senate floor.

Senator Warner said the multiyear contract would take away Congress’s annual oversight. The G.A.O. estimated that the multiyear contract would increase total F-22 program costs by $1.7 billion over the president’s 2006 budget.

F-22 supporters point instead to a report from the Institute for Defense Analyses, a federally financed research group, which said a multiyear contract would save $225 million.

Yet even that report has fallen victim to controversy. The president of the institute, retired Navy Adm. Dennis C. Blair, resigned from it this month amid conflict-of-interest accusations. In July, Mr. Blair was criticized by Senator Warner and Senator McCain for his role in drafting the F-22 report while also holding a seat on the board of the EDO Corporation, an F-22 contractor.

The institute’s trustees asked him last month to resign from his corporate boards. He chose instead to leave the institute. Mr. Blair’s dual role is also being investigated by the Pentagon’s inspector general in an inquiry initiated by Senator Warner and Senator McCain.

Another measure sought by F-22 supporters, the lifting of a ban on sales to foreign countries, easily passed the House in July on a voice vote but failed to make it out of a House-Senate conference committee. Backers of the measure said that overseas sales would help reduce the overall costs of the F-22 program.

Opponents fear that it would permit other nations to gain access to the Pentagon’s most advanced weaponry and technologies.

That measure was offered by Representative Kay Granger of Texas, a Republican whose district includes the Lockheed factory that makes the F-22 midsection and employs 2,640. A spokesman for Ms. Granger, Caitlin Carroll, said it was too early to tell whether Ms. Granger would resubmit it in another Congress.

But Ms. Brian of the Project on Government Oversight has no doubt this issue will come back. “This was a short-term win for the opponents of overseas sales,” said Ms. Brian, who puts herself in that camp. “But this issue will live to fight another day.”
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checksixx
PostPosted: Sep 28, 2006 - 06:57 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Its really sad how you can present factual numbers to people showing that if you order more/more per year, cost goes down. In turn they stretch the program out, with the existing numbers approved and cost this country more per aircraft. Doesn't make you want to re-elect those hard thinkers does it?? Can you say personal agenda's!! As far as citing problems like the canopy and 'stress fractures'...thats so bogus! Ever hear of growing pains? The canopy issue was a simple fix to a bolt and the 'stress fractures' they report on were actually a part in the plane that wasn't manufactured originally to proper specifications. It's been corrected. Hell the Tomcat augered in on its second flight! And several more after that! The Raptor program has lost one jet! I guess this is good news either way though if it opens the door to extend the line.

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LinkF16SimDude
PostPosted: Sep 28, 2006 - 10:54 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Quote:
"I have come to the conclusion that one useless man is called a disgrace; that two useless men are called a Lawfirm; and that three, or more, are called a Congress".....John Adams, President, Patriot and professional agitator.

You'd expect John Warner, from Virginia, of all people, to be highly pro-Raptor. Does he even remember where Langley and Richmond are?! Bang Head

Until more people quit relying on "unbiased" news articles and educate themselves on how unit costs are affected by improvements in the production process over time, they'll never understand how ordering more of something actually brings the price down. It's true if you're buiding toasters or fighters. Over the last almost 30-odd years GD/LockMart managed to keep the Viper's fly-away costs in the $20 to $25 million range despite quantum leaps in capability because of improvements and streamlining in the design and production processes. I'll bet good money the same will happen on the Raptor.

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checksixx
PostPosted: Sep 28, 2006 - 11:14 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Agreed...Especially since the F-16 Richmond Guard Unit is converting to the Raptor!

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idesof
PostPosted: Sep 28, 2006 - 11:29 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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skrip00 wrote:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/09/28/business/28plane.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

F-22A has multi-year contracts!

This opens up the possibility of production past 2011 and even more aircraft to the current 183.

381 or bust! Go USAF go!


I think in this instance you are being unfair to Congress. It should be Raptor 1 - Rumsfeld 0--or, if you like--Raptor 183+ - Rumsfeld 0. He is the Raptor's biggest foe, and if we actually had a SecDef more supportive of the program, we wouldn't be hanging on by the skin of our teeth to see if we're going to get more than 183--we'd be arguing, instead, whether we would get more than 381! If it had been up to Rumsfeld, and if the USAF hadn't threatened to pack up and go to China, he would have canceled the program outright. And, we would have invaded Iraq with 3 people...

As the story notes, except for a few congressmen, the Raptor actually enjoys quite a lot of support in Congress. Even Warner and McCain are not actually against the Raptor program. They are just sore their egos weren't consulted about multiyear purchases.

However, two other things must be noted about the story. The overall negative tone of it toward the Raptor program--not surprising considering it is the NYT--and the reiteration that the Raptor cruises at Mach 2. I acknowledge this is the reporter's mistake. No official sources admit to that number as of yet. Ironically, though, it may not be far from the truth.

By the way, correct me if I'm wrong, but no actual cracks have been found in production airplanes right now flying. I believe they were found during stress testing. Is that correct?
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fireball
PostPosted: Sep 28, 2006 - 11:43 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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All airplanes crack. Period period.

The f-22 is way overpriced/overrated. One could get 6 F-16's for 1 Raptor, who's technology we don't need at this time.

Why purchase the jet when we have no foes that can defeat even the lowly F-15 and F-16? Waste my tax money. Not only do we get an overrated/overpriced aircract we get an overrated/overpriced maintenance records platform/computer for the aircraft. Now we have to maintain 2 systems instead of just the aircraft. Hoodwinked again!
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afnsucks
PostPosted: Sep 29, 2006 - 12:33 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Thats what I'm talking about! We need the Raptor line to keep going steady and strong I hope we end up getting over 400 Raptors (wishful thinking I know but never hurts right?)
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idesof
PostPosted: Sep 29, 2006 - 12:41 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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afnsucks wrote:
Thats what I'm talking about! We need the Raptor line to keep going steady and strong I hope we end up getting over 400 Raptors (wishful thinking I know but never hurts right?)


Wishful thinking? Yes. Optimistic? Certainly. But not entirely outside the realm of possibility. Unlikely? Unfortunately. However, if Congress can understand that we are now getting these babies for the relatively low MSRP of $130 million, it really would be a crime not to get 381 and beyond.

I am concerned, however, about the makeup of the next Congress. I am not a Republican but neither am I a Democrat. And while I do side with the latter on a lot of issues, defense is not usually one of them. I also pray we don't get some latter-day Jimmy Carter as president after Bush, which we might considering that we may make a hard turn to the left after the Iraq fiasco. We'll just have to wait and see...
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Raptor_claw
PostPosted: Sep 29, 2006 - 08:28 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Quote:
Air Force Jet Wins Battle in Congress
By Leslie Wayne
Published: September 28, 2006


It can fly at 60,000 feet, twice as high as any other plane. .”


Can't believe no one else has commented on this. Apparently Ms. Wayne hasn't been on a commercial airliner since about 1950...
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idesof
PostPosted: Sep 29, 2006 - 08:55 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Raptor_claw wrote:
Quote:
Air Force Jet Wins Battle in Congress
By Leslie Wayne
Published: September 28, 2006


It can fly at 60,000 feet, twice as high as any other plane. .”


Can't believe no one else has commented on this. Apparently Ms. Wayne hasn't been on a commercial airliner since about 1950...


Yes, even the good things she has to say about the Raptor are wrong...
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duplex
PostPosted: Sep 29, 2006 - 01:34 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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skrip00 wrote:
F-22A has multi-year contracts!

This opens up the possibility of production past 2011 and even more aircraft to the current 183.

381 or bust! Go USAF go!


Yeah... Great news.Common sense prevails ..
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Lightndattic
PostPosted: Sep 29, 2006 - 03:44 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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In the same breath with which Congress said yes to the multi year procurement, they toook away the foreign sales option. I hope they keep building more, because if Congress doesn't reverse itself on FMS, the line is dead.
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skrip00
PostPosted: Sep 29, 2006 - 06:04 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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FMS was a bait and switch tactic. While I had high hopes for it, it never seemed like a real option.
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idesof
PostPosted: Sep 29, 2006 - 06:20 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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skrip00 wrote:
FMS was a bait and switch tactic. While I had high hopes for it, it never seemed like a real option.


I think it's fair not to export the Raptor just yet. Give it a few more years, when production starts winding down for the USAF, and then start offering it to countries like Japan, Australia, Israel etc. Hell, even Britain after they realize the horrible mistake they made with the EF Wink That way, we can continue to purchase it in small batches for an extended period of time while costs stay down thanks to the production line being warm with export orders.
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Neotopia
PostPosted: Sep 30, 2006 - 12:44 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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idesof wrote:
skrip00 wrote:
FMS was a bait and switch tactic. While I had high hopes for it, it never seemed like a real option.


I think it's fair not to export the Raptor just yet. Give it a few more years, when production starts winding down for the USAF, and then start offering it to countries like Japan, Australia, Israel etc. Hell, even Britain after they realize the horrible mistake they made with the EF Wink That way, we can continue to purchase it in small batches for an extended period of time while costs stay down thanks to the production line being warm with export orders.


No Raptor for Israel, thank-you, I'd rather not have Chinese copies of it coming out... (The Israelis have a bad habit of selling tech to China)
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