F-16.net

Elite 1K Joined: May 10, 2005 Posts: 1089 Status: Offline

Quote:

Pull your head out of your a$$. And do not lecture me CIVILIAN about the real world or democracy. Me, and millions like me, gave up their freedoms when we entered service. You live a sheltered life made possible by me and the millions of other men and women in uniform. Let me get one thing straight with you, I do no SERVE you, my service is to the constitution, and my orders come only from my superior officers. Since there is no reason for you to know anything about the Raptor beyond the fact that it exists, you should have the decency to stop probing servicemen about it.

NOBODY, and I literally mean nobody in the CIVILLIAN world supports the military more than I do, and I have to admit that seeing the word capitalized for emphasis...as if I am somehow less than you are, sheltered and do not live in the real world.....also the comments attached, just offends the living $#@& outta me.

I do not at all support any comments that indicate that anybody in the military owes me any sort of explanation about anything military related....that is handled by the CIVILLIAN ultimately in charge and his subordinates, however the way this segment was worded makes me feel like I live in a military dictatorship and I owe every segment of my life to the pantheons of intelligence, justice and virture in the military. I'm pretty sure that I have a firm grasp of the "real world", democracy and I'm pretty sure I'm not that terribly sheltered.

I typed 3 paragrahs further but they turned out to be just a useless reflection of the anger that welled in my taxpaying CIVILLIAN guts at the denegrating tone expressed by a member of my country's millitary towards the people he has sworn to defend, and I don't want to give rise to that feeling any further because of my deep and abiding respect and affection for military folks.

If I have mis-read or misinterpreted the passage at all, I'd appreciate and will gladly accept any clarification.

F-16.net Sponsor

This message from our sponsor will disappear if you log on as a member.

Raptor_DCTR wrote:

Changing the subject, anybody know where some good fishing is in Arizona? How bout where to find some ocean front property?

Try Yuma for fishing, after the San Andreas does its thing you will have waterfront property about 10 miles away.

Haha, anyone fish at Lake Pleasant?

I didn't read half of the posts above, but pertaining to being military and civilian, as a Marine, I feel that if the civilians left the military to do its job without criticism of any sort, we'd all perform better. Yes, civilians do pay for our equipment, but its also your security you are paying for. If you hired a security guard for your house, you shouldn't question the way he handles things or what weapon he might use. Just let him do the job.

How do you expect everyone to fear and respect us, if they all know our weaknesses? Sure, curiosity will always be there and ask all you want, but we don't have to answer to any civilian as to what we do or what we know. I deal with some pretty sensitive equipment myself. I'm not a Grunt, I'm a Technical Controller. That's all the answer that a civilian will get. I hold a clearance for a reason and even myself, I am in a need to know basis. Civilians aren't in the loop, so they don't even "need" to know. If I can't know everything about my job, then neither should you. This example applies to the F-22 and its abilities.

Newbie Joined: Sep 18, 2005 Posts: 19 Status: Offline

viper032386 wrote:

I didn't read half of the posts above, but pertaining to being military and civilian, as a Marine, I feel that if the civilians left the military to do its job without criticism of any sort, we'd all perform better. Yes, civilians do pay for our equipment, but its also your security you are paying for. If you hired a security guard for your house, you shouldn't question the way he handles things or what weapon he might use. Just let him do the job.

How do you expect everyone to fear and respect us, if they all know our weaknesses? Sure, curiosity will always be there and ask all you want, but we don't have to answer to any civilian as to what we do or what we know. I'm not a Grunt, I'm a Technical Controller. That's all the answer that a civilian will get. I hold a clearance for a reason and even myself, I am in a need to know basis. Civilians aren't in the loop, so they don't even "need" to know. If I can't know everything about my job, then neither should you.

Quote:

I feel that if the civilians left the military to do its job without criticism of any sort, we'd all perform better.

Are you $^*%&* kidding??!? Is there a military dictatorship we can let this man emigrate to so he won't feel constrained?

Please revise your post your doing a disservice to the military. Read other people's posts before commenting.

If this is an example of the intellectual and moral level of the US military(I sure hope it is not) we are in DEEP TROUBLE.

You do know that it is a civilian who sends the military in to begin with, don't you?

Too bad about the 14, but it was a long time coming. From what I understand they were really falling apart. Just remember airshows are just PR, The 22 was built to kill people and blow things up, period.

Okay, so a civilian sends the military into battle, then the citizens complain that we're doing such and such. How can we do our jobs if either way its wrong? It's not recruit training. Its the real deal. Let the citizens worry about things at home and we'll worry about what's going on elsewhere. Recruit training isn't all that hard anymore, thanks to civilians intervening. Now they want us to state all the information about this and that as well.

In my opinion, and to clarify that I do not represent the military as a whole, if a civilian wants to run things from back home, why don't they go to where the action is at and help out? You don't go out there to fight the wars, we do. That goes the same for other jobs back home. If you're not a car mechanic, don't tell the mechanic how to work things. If you're not a CEO, don't act like one. We all have our places in the world, stick to it. If you want to learn more about the F22, join the Air Force and get into the program. If you're over age, then do that civilian government type deal. Get your own self into trouble or something, instead of ruining other peoples lives, chances, fortunes just because you want to know.

Elite 2K Joined: Jan 14, 2004 Posts: 2612 Status: Offline

Idesof = ACSheva? Question

I've waited a long time to use this one pal... Ban

The original post in this thread was so ridiculous that I hate to dignify it with a response, but here goes...

The ACC is starting an F-22 demo team, which will be based at Langley. They will also participate in the Heritage Flight program. IMHO, if they did nothing but a carbon copy of the Eagle's demo, it would be good enough for me. Hell, when I worked right next to the 43rd FS HQ, and watched the Raptors do a full blower max climb until they were out of sight was thrilling enough.

A pilot is not going to be prevented from flying just for what he said on the internet, unless he was giving away classified info. If that were the case, the gov't would give him an all expenses paid 25 to life vacation to Fort Leavenworth.

If the AF is making the driver change his profile, it is most likely a maintenance or safety issue. I'm not sure what he did, or what you were trying to explain that he did, but he might've broken the jet during his profile. Or, the AF could've said that what he did was potentially unsafe for the spectators. Safety is paramount. I don't want to be sitting in the middle of a fireball just to get one extra thrill out of an airshow profile.

Finally, it's very clear that you aren't in the military. Do not ever ask anyone active or retired to divulge classified info. That is actually a crime in itself, and if nothing else, should get you tossed out of here.

To Err is Human. To Forgive is NOT ACC Policy.

If its classified info, please stop squaking about the fact that is in fact classified! That gives away the fact that it is classified, and then everybody and their brother can look at and know its off limits!

TC wrote:

Finally, it's very clear that you aren't in the military. Do not ever ask anyone active or retired to divulge classified info. That is actually a crime in itself, and if nothing else, should get you tossed out of here.

To Err is Human. To Forgive is NOT ACC Policy.

Never mind the rest of your arrogant, ignorant rant. The following may not apply to most of the people in the military who frequent this board, but my experience has been that a great percentage of volunteer armies in the world are populated by people who could not make it in the civilian world because 1. lack of education and/or intelligence; 2. trouble dealing with the demands of a non-regimented lifestyle; 3. inability to get a job elsewhere; 4. poverty; 5. sadistic tendencies as per Lyndie England and the rest of the Abu Graib crew; 6. a way to stay out of prison/drugs and discharge agressive tendencies elsewhere. Plenty of people join the military for the best of reasons and/or intentions, and plenty are highly educated and intelligent and naturally disciplined, but, also, plenty are highly disturbed individuals whose mindset is dicatorial and incompatible with democratic principles. This is why they cannot be trusted with runing the military in the U.S. and why we have a civilian leadership of the military.

Again, so long as it is a volunteer force, you cannot demand that ayone respect your choice to do what you have chosen to do anymore than, say, a car mechanic or a CEO can expect or demand the same. You EARN respect, and the mere fact of enlistment is not enough to earn that honor.

Several of you who have posted in this thread and who are in the military forget that the rules you live under are not the rules the rest of us have to obey. What is very frightening is that your mindset and that of, say, North Korea's despotic leadership are in some essential points indistinguishable. This is why we have civilian control of the military, and thank GOD for that.

But back to the statement quoted above. SHOW me, first of all, where it is a CRIME to ask classified information. SHOW me the law. SHOW me where it is written. If you show me the statute that says, it is a criminal act for a civilian to ask to know information that may be classified (as opposed to frauduletly go about getting it knowing it is a crime to do so) I will never again post on this board and will voluntarily excuse myself. The crime is to divulge classified information, not to merely ask for it say, at an airshow or on a board such as this one. If someone unkowingly asks for classified information, all that has to be said is, sorry, that's classified, or nothing at all. End of story.

Secondly, SHOW me where and when I have ever asked anyone on this board or anywhere else to divulge classified information. Once again, proof of such and I will voluntarily never post again on this board. If you cannot submit proof of either of these instances, then I expect an appology.

DO NOT EVER tell a civilian the measure of his rights AS A CIVILIAN for you have neither the right nor the authority. I will not tell you how to operate whatever it is you operate and you will never tell me how to operate on the basis of the U.S. Constitution. Again, thank GOD for that particular document in the face of people such as you.

Enthusiast Joined: Aug 07, 2006 Posts: 24 Status: Offline

What's the big deal? Anyone is allowed to ASK anything under the sun.. whether you get an answer is another thing altogether and totally beyond your control. So people, feel free to ask away as much as you want...

idesof wrote:

but my experience has been that a great percentage of volunteer armies in the world are populated by people who could not make it in the civilian world because 1. lack of education and/or intelligence; 2. trouble dealing with the demands of a non-regimented lifestyle; 3. inability to get a job elsewhere; 4. poverty; 5. sadistic tendencies as per Lyndie England and the rest of the Abu Graib crew; 6. a way to stay out of prison/drugs and discharge agressive tendencies elsewhere. Plenty of people join the military for the best of reasons and/or intentions, and plenty are highly educated and intelligent and naturally disciplined, but, also, plenty are highly disturbed individuals whose mindset is dicatorial and incompatible with democratic principles. This is why they cannot be trusted with runing the military in the U.S. and why we have a civilian leadership of the military.

Again, so long as it is a volunteer force, you cannot demand that ayone respect your choice to do what you have chosen to do anymore than, say, a car mechanic or a CEO can expect or demand the same. You EARN respect, and the mere fact of enlistment is not enough to earn that honor.

Several of you who have posted in this thread and who are in the military forget that the rules you live under are not the rules the rest of us have to obey. What is very frightening is that your mindset and that of, say, North Korea's despotic leadership are in some essential points indistinguishable. This is why we have civilian control of the military, and thank GOD for that.

How about the people that join the military to SERVE their country, to SERVE their fellow citizens? I would say the vast majority join to serve. Getting an education as part of it is a perk. I'd join to serve even if I didn't get anything out of it, and I'm sure many other feel the same way.

As for your part about a civilian being in control in control of the military...you're going to have good and bad leaders and decision makers on both sides.

And we don't demand respect from anyone. We're just doing our jobs. If people choose to respect us for that, that's their choice. I'm sure ever member of the miltary on here will agree with me on this. It's a free country and if people want to hate us, dispise us and everything we do, good for them. That is THEIR choice and we're protecting THEIR right to do and say as they please and we respect that, no matter how much we may disgree with them.

Delta wrote:

How about the people that join the military to SERVE their country, to SERVE their fellow citizens? I would say the vast majority join to serve. Getting an education as part of it is a perk. I'd join to serve even if I didn't get anything out of it, and I'm sure many other feel the same way.

As for your part about a civilian being in control in control of the military...you're going to have good and bad leaders and decision makers on both sides.

And we don't demand respect from anyone. We're just doing our jobs. If people choose to respect us for that, that's their choice. I'm sure ever member of the miltary on here will agree with me on this. It's a free country and if people want to hate us, dispise us and everything we do, good for them. That is THEIR choice and we're protecting THEIR right to do and say as they please and we respect that.

Please don't misunderstand me. I know that there are a lot of people who join in order to serve and to live up to high ideals. People like you who have nothing but the best and noblest of intentions. But I have known some really sadistic, cruel, f*cked up individuls who have joined in order to acquire power and abuse of that power. Yes, I have known them personally.

On the other hand, I don't really know anyone who HATES people in the military or the military itself, at least not personally. I think there are people, however, considering the current war, who hate what's going on over there, but that's different. I really hope you don't think we have gotten to the point where we have a lot of civilians who, idiotically, would blame the military itself for what's going on in Iraq such as many did with Vietnam. I think much as the military learned from its mistakes during that war, so have civilians, many of whom behaved like utter bastards to the folks who came home from that conflict. Sadly, it does seem like many politicians didn't learn a thing from Vietnam...

you guys should really try getting laid sometime

Quote:

...but my experience has been that a great percentage of volunteer armies in the world are populated by people who could not make it in the civilian world because 1. lack of education and/or intelligence; 2. trouble dealing with the demands of a non-regimented lifestyle; 3. inability to get a job elsewhere; 4. poverty; 5. sadistic tendencies as per Lyndie England and the rest of the Abu Graib crew; 6. a way to stay out of prison/drugs and discharge agressive tendencies elsewhere.

In your experience? Sir, I think it's safe to say if you did in fact have any real experience you'd know that the stereotypes you just listed are totally bogus. Contrary to what Michael Moore and those like him would have everyone believe, we (US service men and women) are not stupid, sadistic country bumpkins that that are too poor and/or uneducated to attend college or find jobs elsewhere.

F-16.net

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Say bye-bye to great Raptor airshows