Forum: F-22A Raptor

The F-22: not what we were hoping for?



Search Search  Register Register  Private Messages Private Messages
guidelines Forum Guidelines
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.   1, 2, 3, 4, 5  Next
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Author Message
duplex
PostPosted: Sep 19, 2006 - 06:55 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Senior member
Senior member


Joined: Apr 14, 2005 - 05:30 PM
Posts: 302

Status: Offline
Please attack or defend this post

Quote:
The F-22: not what we were hoping for
by James Stevenson and Pierre Sprey

The F-22 fighter aircraft's focus on stealth brings big disadvantages in cost, weight and manoeuvrability, argue Pierre Sprey and James Stevenson

For decades, the US Air Force has pushed the F-22 as its fighter for the 21st century. Advocates tout its technical features: fuel-efficient, high-speed 'super-cruise'; advanced electronics; and reduced profile against enemy sensors, known as 'stealth'.

However, on measures that determine winning or losing in air combat, the F-22 fails to improve the US fighter force. In fact, it degrades our combat capability.

Careful examination of actual air-to-air battles tells us that there are five attributes that make a winning fighter. These attributes shaped the F-15 and the F-16.

They are: (1) pilot training and ability; (2) obtaining the first sighting and surprising the enemy; (3) outnumbering enemy fighters in the air; (4) outmanoeuvring enemy fighters to gain a firing position; and (5) consistently converting split-second firing opportunities into kills.

The F-22 is a mediocrity, at best, on (4) and (5). It is a liability on (1), (2) and (3).

The most important attribute - pilot quality - dwarfs the others. Air combat history from both small and large wars makes that obvious. After the Israel Air Force (IAF) swept Syrian MiGs from the sky in Israel's 1982 invasion of Lebanon with an 82-0 exchange ratio, the IAF Chief of Staff told US congressional staffers that the result would have been the same had the Syrian and Israeli pilots switched aircraft.

Great pilots get that way by constant dogfight training. Between 1975 and 1980, at the Navy Fighter Weapons School ('Topgun'), instructor pilots got 40 to 60 hours of air combat manoeuvring per month. Their students came from squadrons getting only 14 to 20 hours per month. Flying the cheap, simple F-5, the robustly trained instructors consistently whipped the students in their 'more capable' F-4 Phantoms, F-14 Tomcats and F-15 Eagles. Today, partly thanks to the pressure on the air force's training budget from the F-22's excessive purchase and operating costs, an F-22 pilot gets 12 to 14 hours of flight training per month. For winning future air battles, this is a huge step backward.

For half a century, the air force has been attempting to get the jump on enemy fighters through expensive, complex technology.

Billions of dollars were spent trying to perfect long-range radar missiles to achieve 'beyond-visual-range' (BVR) kills. Extraordinary kill rates, as high as 80 to 90 per cent, were promised when projects were being sold. Success rates in actual combat were below 10 per cent. Simple, more agile, shorter-range infra-red missiles and guns were far more successful and effective.

Worse, the 'identification friend or foe' (IFF) systems that must distinguish enemies from friends before launching BVR missiles failed in every war. As recently as Operation 'Iraqi Freedom' in 2003, misidentified allied aircraft were lost to US systems. The air force now tells us the only way to get the jump on enemy fighters supposedly launching BVR missiles is with stealth. But stealth solves neither the problem of less effective, high-cost BVR radar missiles nor the IFF conundrum. Moreover, stealth has failed to make our fighters invisible to radar and it brings crippling disadvantages.

In Operation 'Desert Storm' in 1991, according to the Government Accountability Office, so-called stealthy F-117s were significantly less effective bombers than the air force described publicly - there is anecdotal evidence that ancient Iraqi radars detected them. In the war against Serbia in 1999, non-stealthy F-16s had a lower loss rate per sortie than the F-117s. The F-22 will not be invisible to radar in real combat, where it cannot control detection angles and radar types.

The most obvious disadvantage stealth brings to the F-22 is extraordinary cost; it grossly reduces the numbers we will buy. New Department of Defense data shows the total unit cost of the F-22 has grown from about USD130 million to over USD350 million per aircraft. Result? The original buy of 750 is now down to 185.

Moreover, stealth plus the F-22's complexity result in unprecedented levels of maintenance downtime. That further reduces numbers in the air; 185 F-22s will support about 120 deployed fighters. They will be lucky to generate 60 combat sorties per day: a laughable number in any serious air war. In World War II, the Luftwaffe could field only 70 of its revolutionary jet: the Me-262. It caused alarm among Allied pilots but had negligible effect on the air battle.

Furthermore, the stealth requirement adds significant drag, weight and size. Size is the most crippling. Why? Because real-world combat is visual combat. Because the F-22 is much bigger than most fighters, it will be detected first, reversing the theoretical advantage it derives from stealth. Topgun had a saying: "The biggest target in the sky is always the first to die."

Once seen, the F-22 has trouble outman-oeuvring the enemy. Its weight hurts the key performance measures of turning and accelerating. Put simply, both the F-15A and F-16A out-turn and out-accelerate the F-22.

Finally, stealth harms the F-22's quick-firing ability. To retain stealth, the gun and missiles must be buried behind doors that take too long to open to exploit instantaneous opportunities.

The air force will argue strenuously that we are wrong and the F-22 has excelled in air-to-air exercises against all comers. However, our information is that these are 'canned' engagements in which the F-22 is pitted against opponents in joust-like scenarios set up to exploit the F-22's theoretical advantages and exclude its real-world vulnerabilities.

There is a way to find out who is right. A serious test of F-22 capabilities would pit it against pilots and aircraft the air force does not control using rules of engagement dictated by combat and the ratio of F-22s to enemies that the tiny F-22 inventory should expect in hostile skies.

We both would be delighted to observe any such realistic exercises and to report back to this magazine. Nothing would please us more than to find that we are wrong and US fighter pilots have been given the best fighter in the sky.


Pierre Sprey was one of three designers who conceived and shaped the F-16; he also led the technical side of the US Air Force's A-10 design concept team. James Stevenson is former editor of the Navy Fighter Weapons School's Topgun Journal and author of The Pentagon Paradox and The $5 Billion Misunderstanding.

This article is adapted from a briefing they produced for the Straus Military Reform Project of the Center for Defense Information.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Sponsor
New postPosted: Feb 12, 2012 - 3:15 AM Back to top
F-16.net Sponsor





  Send private message  
 
Meathook
PostPosted: Sep 19, 2006 - 07:30 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite 3K
Elite 3K


Joined: May 14, 2004 - 12:37 AM
Posts: 3325

Status: Offline
Its an opinion only at this point, I take it at face value until the aircraft engages and has a real chance to prove itself, then we can all reevaluate these comments to see if any held water...too early to tell at this point, least that is my thought on it.

Sounds like they have an "ax" to grind anyway....there is always someone available with a different attitude or approach (agrees with or disagrees with design and capabilities)...no biggie for me at this point, means zip!
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
sferrin
PostPosted: Sep 19, 2006 - 07:40 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite 1K
Elite 1K


Joined: Jul 22, 2005 - 04:23 AM
Posts: 1408

Status: Offline
Funny, all I had to see was "Pierre Sprey" and I knew how it was going to read. Biased as Riconni.

It always makes me laugh when I hear things like "stealth brings big disadvantages in cost, weight and maneuverability. Doesn't seem to keep it from being more manueverable than the non-stealth F-15. It's all relative, there is no physical bar that says "stealth aircraft may not manuever beyond this performance point". I guess they think if it's repeated enough that it will be true.

As for the quality of their opinion and/or magnitude of their bias you only have to read this:

"(2) obtaining the first sighting and surprising the enemy;" Here they rate the F-22 as a LIABILITY. Somehow they think it's easier to detect than a current day F-15 or F-16. Obviously they're still thinking the Mk1 Eyeball is the be all and end all of air combat sensors which goes to show how stuck in the past they are. The "Fighter Mafia" is made up of a bunch of Ahabs who failed to kill the first white whale (the F-15) and have now transferred their bitterness to the F-22. I almost feel embarrassed for them.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
blain2
PostPosted: Sep 19, 2006 - 07:50 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Enthusiast
Enthusiast


Joined: Apr 13, 2005 - 05:52 PM
Posts: 67

Status: Offline
Seems to be a very high level critique without too much of depth. With 2-D TVCs, manuerverability in most cases would be helped regardless of the size. At WVR everyone dies at the same rate applies to any manned aircraft including the F/A-22. So after reading it, I am not able to find one specific point that is really a serious disadvantage for the Raptor.

Quote:
185 F-22s will support about 120 deployed fighters. They will be lucky to generate 60 combat sorties per day:

How does this come to 60 sorties/day? Are we saying that of the deployed 120, half are really available? Possible but that would make it out to be a really shitty MTBF/MTTR number for the Raptor...not likely in my opinion.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Patriot
PostPosted: Sep 19, 2006 - 07:52 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Sep 02, 2006 - 06:48 PM
Posts: 241
Location: Poland
Status: Offline
Well,
Generally speaking I'm agree with Meathook.
Thing is that we shouldn't draw to far-reaching conclusions too early.
There's always problems.
Raptor is still young construction and until he don't get opportunity to show his capabilties in combat until we wouldn't know too much in fact.

_________________
Great Balls Of Fire
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
falconfixer860261
PostPosted: Sep 19, 2006 - 08:24 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran


Joined: May 17, 2005 - 04:21 PM
Posts: 984

Status: Offline
They make lots of statements but provide no empirical data to support their claims. It's like we should believe what they say just because of who they are. Homey don't play dat game. And I know some F-15 pilots who went up against some Raptors and I can tell you that they would disagree with this piece of "journalism". I'm not quite sure what qualifies either of these two gentlemen to be experts on a program they are viewing from the outside. They probably just want to sell books and articles. You don't win a Pulitzer by saying everything is fine. All of you who are in the military know what a "great" job the press does on getting the facts straight - right?
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
navav2002
PostPosted: Sep 19, 2006 - 11:05 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Enthusiast
Enthusiast


Joined: May 30, 2005 - 05:48 AM
Posts: 44
Location: Atl, Georgia
Status: Offline
(1) pilot training and ability;
Am I wrong about this?? Arn't most all current F-22 pilots out of either the F-15 or F-16 ?? I mean last I heard it took some decent qualifications to get a seat in the Raptor...

(2) obtaining the first sighting and surprising the enemy;
Huh?? If your flyin' around..And all the sudden..Your Dead...I would think that would be a Suprise...

(3) outnumbering enemy fighters in the air;
The F-22 is a Force multiplier...Thats part of the concept...Hello!!

(4) outmanoeuvring enemy fighters to gain a firing position; and (5) consistently converting split-second firing opportunities into kills."
Huh??..I think these dudes need to talk to Dozer...

These guys make no sense...

That's all for me..
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Scorpion1alpha
PostPosted: Sep 20, 2006 - 04:05 AM Reply with quote Back to top
F-16.net Moderator
F-16.net Moderator


Joined: Oct 21, 2005 - 01:47 AM
Posts: 1293

Status: Offline
Quote:
And I know some F-15 pilots who went up against some Raptors and I can tell you that they would disagree with this piece of "journalism".


And I know some Viper jocks who would say the same thing.

There was a time way back when that I used to respect Sprey. Now, no way! Sprey and Riccioni have no clue about the F-22's capabilities and what it is capable of. And I like it that way.

And I had no idea who the hell Stevenson was until be became a Sprey/Riccioni lackey. These guys need more fiber in their diets.

_________________
I'm watching...
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Whiteman_B2
PostPosted: Sep 20, 2006 - 09:56 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: May 05, 2005 - 10:13 PM
Posts: 100
Location: MO, USA
Status: Offline
It sucks knowing your era has passed, but these gentlemen need to DEAL WITH IT! Two Cents
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
seat_dreamer
PostPosted: Sep 20, 2006 - 10:09 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Senior member
Senior member


Joined: Apr 08, 2006 - 05:49 PM
Posts: 278
Location: Athens, Greece
Status: Offline
I'm not sure which of the authors influenced more the article, but there are some very invalid points from a logical point of view. Since the article core seems to be the 5-point "bashing" of the Raptor:

1. As someone above said, you don't take the cadet newbie and put him to fly such a complicated aircraft. I'd imagine that the current and near-future Raptor pilots would be very experienced in older F-xx fighters, would have combat experience and proved themselves in the line of duty. What better training can you get than that ?

2. A stealth design (they don't see it before) + AESA radar (they don't see it during) + AIM-120 (they don't see it coming). In other words, they don't even imagine something is there until the RWR pops an M when the AIM-120 goes active. I'd imagine they wouldn't even make it reading the RWR indication before the plane blows up.

3. I think Israelis have wiped the floor with that statement multiple times. Facing 3 and 4 AFs at times they managed to beat them all with pilot and tactics superiority without having numerical superiority.

4. If anyone's left after the AIM-120 mayhem, I'd imagine JHMCS and AIM-9X would make a fun ride for the Raptor pilots.

5. That one, I'm not aware of neither what he means, or how the aircraft works, so I'll admit being totally ignorant.

I just hope Sprey is just a "hit" name for the articles (so they get pubiclity), and that the main article is Stevenson's. It's too bad to see personalities as legendary as him embarassing their fame...

_________________
"144-0 kill ratio.....Ok 144-1 but that's 1 compared to your entire airforce."
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
parrothead
PostPosted: Sep 20, 2006 - 10:46 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite 3K
Elite 3K


Joined: May 11, 2004 - 12:04 AM
Posts: 3280

Status: Offline
If the Raptor ain't maneuverable, I'll eat a fighter jet (as long as they cut it into little pieces with no sharp edges Wink ).

Something alot of people forget is that (at least from rumors I've heard) the Raptor will be employed at relatively high altitudes - 40K to 50K feet where its thrust vectoring really gives it an edge in turning in the thin air. Even then, you can't hit what you can't see and a Raptor 20 miles out with a load of AMRAAMs and a data link from an AWACS coming at you from your 6 is mighty hard to see Laughing !

_________________
No plane on Sunday, maybe be one come Monday...
www.parrotheadjeff.com
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
locum
PostPosted: Sep 20, 2006 - 01:59 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Feb 05, 2005 - 02:20 AM
Posts: 132

Status: Offline
Since the laws of physics refuse to bend for anyone, the aircraft designers/ engineers are reaching the point of diminishing returns with much of their design work. The progression from Wright Flyer to Fokker Dreideckers to Spitfires to Eagles represents enormous strides. But since the teen fighters came on the scene, we have been bumping our heads against technological ceilings.
Does the Raptor represent the same progression as we saw from Spitfire to F-86 Sabre?
Of course not. Does it offer anything hugely different from its predecessors? NO, it does not. It does however improve the breed, but it does not redefine it.

Kurt Tank, the designer & testpilot of the Focke Wulf Fw-109,one of the best fighters in WW II, stated that he designed his 'ButcherBird' as: robust, reliable, simple, easy to maintain and easy to use. Experience in WW I as a soldier, learned him that this was important for any weapon.
The F-22 is robust, it can even take 30mm hits at important parts, but is it reliable, simple and easy to maintain/ use? The same goes for the F-35.

Manfred von Richtenhofen, the famous fighter ace in WW I, stated that it did not matter which fighter he was flying.
Most important was: good training/ skills + outnumbering the enemy.

The IDF,
Pierre Sprey is quoting Rafael Eitan, with its 87 - 0 win over the Syrian AF.
Despite the IDFs technological superiority over adversary airforces, the IDF placed considerable priority on the human element. According to Rafael Eitan: training is of greater importance and significance than the means of warfare, the weapon systems and the technology.
Stealth is at this site (over)hyped. It is demonstrated since WW II in several conflicts, that in order to win the air war, you must first conquer the electromagnetic spectrum. Before the Kosovo-campaign in 1999, the USAF tried to rely on Stealth only with its F-117 and B-2 Spirit. After the campaign, the doctrine was changed, the USAF decided to rely on Observation Countermeasures (OCM, stealth) AND ECM, with regard to F-117 and B-2 missions.
The US Navy has shown, that OCM can be countered by Network Centric Warfare; Europeans, Russians etc. are already using NCW. ECM played a very important role in the Bekaa Valley 1982 campaign.
People at this site are bashing the semi-stealth/ descrete Rafale, but in fact this aircraft has an impressive ECM/ EW suite just like the Mirage 2000.

The IDF learned between 1967 and 1973, that an effective doctrine and organization is needed, interservice cooperation has become the standard for the IDF, indeed the Israeli AF and navy are incorporated in the ground forces staff at the national level = integrated command structure.
Operation Rolling Thunder (Vietnam), ops Eagle Claw (Iran, 1980), Grenada (1983), Lybia (1986) recall mis-applications of air power by insufficient interservice coordination. In 1986, the USN had 2 carriers with 155 warplanes off the coast with Lybia. But the USAF found it necessary to join the fight with: 24 Aarvarks (9 of them did not complete the mission), 5 EF-111s and 28 tanker aircraft to fly a 5,600 st.miles/ 9.010 km round-trip. Sorry, my dear site possums, but I do not understand why ground based air defence (Patriots etc.) is still a task of the US Army.
Network Centric Warfare or Network Enabled Capability for the Poms, is not only a technological thing, more importantly it has to do with organisation and the mentality of the service (wo)men involved.
Huh??!!, organisation?, mentality?, the introduction of telegraph, telephone and radio at the battle field, speeded up the pace of warfare. NCW will do the same, a non-NCW organisation can do with an authoritative or top-to-bottom structure, but in order to fully exploit NCW, you need a participating or bottom-to-top organisation. Wow, we need a new NCW warrior!

Preponderance.
Ruskies and Yanks had something in common during WW II, they did not defeat that evil Axis by superior strategy, tactics and weapons. No, it was industrial production capacity, read outnumbering your enemy at the battle field. The Krauts produced first class guns, tanks, fighters etc. and some were even revolutionary, but luckily it was not enough.
By the way, the IAF enjoyed numerical preponderance over the Bekaa Valley, they outnumbered the Syrians by 3 : 2 aircraft.

Over

_________________
Nulla tenaci invia est via.
Tzaruch shemirah, hasof bahr
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
sampaix
PostPosted: Sep 20, 2006 - 03:48 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Enthusiast
Enthusiast


Joined: Sep 20, 2006 - 12:50 PM
Posts: 41

Status: Offline
To my modest understanding, F-22 increase in empty weight is not doing it any good in terms of performances.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/211833/t ... hoping+for

I posted some in this WAFF topic recently.

Understand, if it is only marginally superior to Typhoon interms of instantaneous turn rate, which is rather surprising and might indicate the use of TVC for the purpose, i wonder what it will be like vs, well something else...

@locum I'trs FW 190. The 109 was Messershmidt or something equaly unwriteable for a Frenchman. We say B-F 109 and F-W 190.
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
idesof
PostPosted: Sep 20, 2006 - 04:11 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran


Joined: May 29, 2006 - 11:59 PM
Posts: 638

Status: Offline
locum wrote:
Since the laws of physics refuse to bend for anyone, the aircraft designers/ engineers are reaching the point of diminishing returns with much of their design work. The progression from Wright Flyer to Fokker Dreideckers to Spitfires to Eagles represents enormous strides. But since the teen fighters came on the scene, we have been bumping our heads against technological ceilings.
Does the Raptor represent the same progression as we saw from Spitfire to F-86 Sabre?
Of course not. Does it offer anything hugely different from its predecessors? NO, it does not. It does however improve the breed, but it does not redefine it.

Kurt Tank, the designer & testpilot of the Focke Wulf Fw-109,one of the best fighters in WW II, stated that he designed his 'ButcherBird' as: robust, reliable, simple, easy to maintain and easy to use. Experience in WW I as a soldier, learned him that this was important for any weapon.
The F-22 is robust, it can even take 30mm hits at important parts, but is it reliable, simple and easy to maintain/ use? The same goes for the F-35.

Manfred von Richtenhofen, the famous fighter ace in WW I, stated that it did not matter which fighter he was flying.
Most important was: good training/ skills + outnumbering the enemy.

The IDF,
Pierre Sprey is quoting Rafael Eitan, with its 87 - 0 win over the Syrian AF.
Despite the IDFs technological superiority over adversary airforces, the IDF placed considerable priority on the human element. According to Rafael Eitan: training is of greater importance and significance than the means of warfare, the weapon systems and the technology.
Stealth is at this site (over)hyped. It is demonstrated since WW II in several conflicts, that in order to win the air war, you must first conquer the electromagnetic spectrum. Before the Kosovo-campaign in 1999, the USAF tried to rely on Stealth only with its F-117 and B-2 Spirit. After the campaign, the doctrine was changed, the USAF decided to rely on Observation Countermeasures (OCM, stealth) AND ECM, with regard to F-117 and B-2 missions.
The US Navy has shown, that OCM can be countered by Network Centric Warfare; Europeans, Russians etc. are already using NCW. ECM played a very important role in the Bekaa Valley 1982 campaign.
People at this site are bashing the semi-stealth/ descrete Rafale, but in fact this aircraft has an impressive ECM/ EW suite just like the Mirage 2000.

The IDF learned between 1967 and 1973, that an effective doctrine and organization is needed, interservice cooperation has become the standard for the IDF, indeed the Israeli AF and navy are incorporated in the ground forces staff at the national level = integrated command structure.
Operation Rolling Thunder (Vietnam), ops Eagle Claw (Iran, 1980), Grenada (1983), Lybia (1986) recall mis-applications of air power by insufficient interservice coordination. In 1986, the USN had 2 carriers with 155 warplanes off the coast with Lybia. But the USAF found it necessary to join the fight with: 24 Aarvarks (9 of them did not complete the mission), 5 EF-111s and 28 tanker aircraft to fly a 5,600 st.miles/ 9.010 km round-trip. Sorry, my dear site possums, but I do not understand why ground based air defence (Patriots etc.) is still a task of the US Army.
Network Centric Warfare or Network Enabled Capability for the Poms, is not only a technological thing, more importantly it has to do with organisation and the mentality of the service (wo)men involved.
Huh??!!, organisation?, mentality?, the introduction of telegraph, telephone and radio at the battle field, speeded up the pace of warfare. NCW will do the same, a non-NCW organisation can do with an authoritative or top-to-bottom structure, but in order to fully exploit NCW, you need a participating or bottom-to-top organisation. Wow, we need a new NCW warrior!

Preponderance.
Ruskies and Yanks had something in common during WW II, they did not defeat that evil Axis by superior strategy, tactics and weapons. No, it was industrial production capacity, read outnumbering your enemy at the battle field. The Krauts produced first class guns, tanks, fighters etc. and some were even revolutionary, but luckily it was not enough.
By the way, the IAF enjoyed numerical preponderance over the Bekaa Valley, they outnumbered the Syrians by 3 : 2 aircraft.

Over


Where to even begin to disagree with your statements? Let's just say I disagree with all your conclusions Wink !

You are showing the same cognitive inability to deal with a paradigm shift that makes all the examples you cite utterly irrelevant. It's like giving someone a gun who has always used a knife and has never seen a gun before and that person still going on about how he is going to get close enough to be able to stab his oponent. If you want to draw an analogy it is that: you have to go back to the American-Indian wars before the Indians had guns and were getting massacred by the thousands because they were still using the bow and arrow and the Americans could stand-off and pick them apart with guns. Rest assured the Indians were by far the greater warriors, at least close in. But the overwhelming technological advance of the gun vs. the bow and arrow erased any advantage the Indians may have enjoyed in terms of battle experience. Moreover, a small force of Americans could defeat a vastly numerically superior force of Indians. WW II, Vietnam, the Bekaa Valley, Kosovo, even the first Iraq war are all irrelevant in terms of stealth used as a transformative element in the airwar.

Where this post is most utterly wrongheaded is in the first paragraph. The leap from an F-15 to an F-22 is in fact at least as great as that between a Spitfire and a Sabre. Even greater, I would argue. It is the leap between a Sabre without RWR and an F-15 armed with Amraams. If they were ever pitted one against the other, the latter get picked off by the dozens without knowing what the hell hit them. Talk to Eagle and Viper pilots who have gone up against the Raptor. Same exact experience. Again and again and again and again...

By the way, the case of the F-117 shot down over Kosovo has been addressed ad nauseam. In terms of the stupidity of the tactics employed by NATO in that instance, they may as well have given a Serbian a gun and led him to the F-117 flight line and given him the choice of which pilot to kill from behind as he walked to his aircraft. Stealth did not "fail" in that instance. The tactics of its employment did. Hell, the F-22 HAS had a handful of losses in mock engagements, precisely because the pilot in question f*cked up. But rest assured that he learned his lesson Wink
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
idesof
PostPosted: Sep 20, 2006 - 04:31 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran


Joined: May 29, 2006 - 11:59 PM
Posts: 638

Status: Offline
sampaix wrote:
To my modest understanding, F-22 increase in empty weight is not doing it any good in terms of performances.
http://www.network54.com/Forum/211833/t ... hoping+for

I posted some in this WAFF topic recently.

Understand, if it is only marginally superior to Typhoon interms of instantaneous turn rate, which is rather surprising and might indicate the use of TVC for the purpose, i wonder what it will be like vs, well something else...

@locum I'trs FW 190. The 109 was Messershmidt or something equaly unwriteable for a Frenchman. We say B-F 109 and F-W 190.


Your understanding is indeed modest. Raptor pilots have repeatedly expressed that it will outmaneuver any aircraft in the world today. All available evidence supports that contention. No Typhoon pilot, for instance, would ever make a similar statement about his or her aircraft because he or she would know that it is incorrect. Moreover, Raptor pilot Dozer addressed the question of weight gain recently in a post at Fencecheck.com. You may want to check out that thread as I think it will clear up a lot of your misconceptions. No, F-22 weight gain is not an issue, and certainly will never be an issue as much as it was and has been for the F-16, which went from 15,000 lbs. empty to more than 19,000 lbs. and even more in the case of the Block 60.

Moreover, what is the likelihood a Raptor will EVER see WVR combat? When was the last time the USAF had any sort of dogfight? If F-15s and F-16s, which CAN readily be seen on radar, can stand-off and pick out targets BVR without ever getting anywhere close to a dogfight scenario, then it stands to reason the Raptor would have even less probability of ever getting itself involved in a furball. Look, I will bet one year's salary that 30 years from now, the Raptor will have amassed an Eagle-like kill ratio and all of its kills will have been not just BVR, but it will have remained utterly unseen by its victims in all cases. It really is tiresome arguing maneuverability these days. It's like sniper arguing with a caveman about stone-throwing techniques. It really has become irrelevant. Enough of this Vientam-induced trauma bull*hit!
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:     
Jump to:  
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   This topic is locked: you cannot edit posts or make replies.
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Copyright © 2011 Lieven Dewitte and Stefaan Vanhastel
Site F-22 Section Forum