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Elite Joined: Jul 08, 2004 Posts: 609 Status: Offline

To Roscoe and all,
My question is serious enough, although I greatly appreciate the comic suggestions that have come Very Happy

However, the Viper does fly with special "dummy" `winders, also called AMA pods (Daco`s F-16 Viper book, page 106) to enhance the radar signature.
Falconfixer860261; the protrucions mentioned are the same as those found on the inlet of the 64AS agressor Vipers, ref. Dacos book page 118 (top)
As Danny Carreman is an ex-crew chief I hope he knows what he`s talking about. Wink

Looking forward to more - serious and non-serious - comments Cool

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Elite Joined: Jul 30, 2005 Posts: 739 Status: Offline

falconfixer860261 wrote:

I was in the F-22 program and have no clue of what you are talking about regarding cylindrical or pyramidal protrusions.....Same goes for what you are saying about the Agressor -16's...

the 117 def had em

Elite Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 964 Status: Offline

Boman wrote:

To Roscoe and all,
My question is serious enough, although I greatly appreciate the comic suggestions that have come Very Happy

However, the Viper does fly with special "dummy" `winders, also called AMA pods (Daco`s F-16 Viper book, page 106) to enhance the radar signature.
Falconfixer860261; the protrucions mentioned are the same as those found on the inlet of the 64AS agressor Vipers, ref. Dacos book page 118 (top)
As Danny Carreman is an ex-crew chief I hope he knows what he`s talking about. Wink

Looking forward to more - serious and non-serious - comments Cool

Roscoe definitely knows what he's talking about. As for the book it wouldn't be the first time a book's been wrong.

Elite Joined: Jul 08, 2004 Posts: 609 Status: Offline

Guys, I`m not doubting people`s knowledge, believe me
I`m curious, that`s why I want to learn, which I also have done plenty of while reading the comments made on the various threads in the forum on F-16.net. Just wanted to help clear up what I was refering to Wink

Elite Joined: May 17, 2005 Posts: 984 Status: Offline

Wasn't saying it wasn't true - just that I had no idea what he was talking about. I've never seen the features he mentioned on a -22.

Last edited by habu2 on Sep 19, 2006 - 08:53 PM; edited 1 time in total

falconfixer860261 wrote:

Wasn't saying it wasn't true - just that I had no idea what he was talking about. I've never seen the features he mentioned on a -22.

Many F-22 photos show a small cylindrical pod carried on the centerline, while no one has definitely identified the object it is quite probable this is some kind of signature enhancer/reflector/transmitter. Ours is not the need to know....

F-117s had small faceted 'boxes' attached to the sides of the fuselage to increase radar signature. Again, a quick review of photos will show these devices.

On the F-117, right behind the star/bar insignia:

Elite Joined: May 17, 2005 Posts: 984 Status: Offline

Oh I get it now. This is all just speculation as to function of these items. Thanks for the clarification.

Elite Joined: Jul 30, 2005 Posts: 739 Status: Offline

ummm no....the crew chiefs on the spot along with the commander of one of the stealth squadrons told me exactly what they were for. Its posted above.

Elite Joined: May 29, 2006 Posts: 640 Status: Offline

falconfixer860261 wrote:

I was in the F-22 program and have no clue of what you are talking about regarding cylindrical or pyramidal protrusions.....Same goes for what you are saying about the Agressor -16's...

The F-117 uses them - look it up. The F-22 uses a cylindrical shape on the aft bottom of the fuselage - maybe when you were on the program it was not in use yet or perhaps it was NTK and you did not NTK. Agressor F-16s and F-16Ns both use(d) signature enhancers mounted on their intakes - again, look it up.

Another F-16 maintenance fellow recently commented that asymetrical loads would "unbalance" the airplane, something that's obviously not the case since F-16s flew and fly in Iraq all the time with asymetrical loads. This fellow obviously may have known his maintenance but not his aerodynamics. In other words, you may have been in the F-22 program, but that does not mean you knew every aspect of that airplane's design and operations.

Elite Joined: May 17, 2005 Posts: 984 Status: Offline

idesof wrote:

falconfixer860261 wrote:

I was in the F-22 program and have no clue of what you are talking about regarding cylindrical or pyramidal protrusions.....Same goes for what you are saying about the Agressor -16's...

The F-117 uses them - look it up. The F-22 uses a cylindrical shape on the aft bottom of the fuselage - maybe when you were on the program it was not in use yet or perhaps it was NTK and you did not NTK. Agressor F-16s and F-16Ns both use(d) signature enhancers mounted on their intakes - again, look it up.

Another F-16 maintenance fellow recently commented that asymetrical loads would "unbalance" the airplane, something that's obviously not the case since F-16s flew and fly in Iraq all the time with asymetrical loads. This fellow obviously may have known his maintenance but not his aerodynamics. In other words, you may have been in the F-22 program, but that does not mean you knew every aspect of that airplane's design and operations.

Agreed - I didn't know all aspects of the program - very few people do. I probably didn't phrase my words right when I composed my original post.

Elite Joined: May 17, 2005 Posts: 984 Status: Offline

[quote="idesof
Another F-16 maintenance fellow recently commented that asymetrical loads would "unbalance" the airplane, something that's obviously not the case since F-16s flew and fly in Iraq all the time with asymetrical loads. This fellow obviously may have known his maintenance but not his aerodynamics.[/quote]

BTW- assymetrical loads and flutter are really two different issues but can be related. The missile (or dummy) on the rail acts as a damper for certain frequencies. If I remember correctly they were going to do away with the tip tanks on the G and H model BUFF's but they found that without them there was some harmful flutter in the wings so they compromised and just put smaller ones on than what the earlier models had.

Asymetrical loads cause uneven consumption of life limits on the wing that has the heavier load. It can also cause handling problems if only part of the weapons loadout is expended. It also causes the flight envelope to be changed and can be dangerous in certain edge of the envelope maneuvers.

I'm not an aerodynamicist - this is just what I've either read or been told by old hands. Neither of which makes the info infallible. I've had pilots and engineers who swore by certain info but they were still wrong nonetheless.

falconfixer860261 wrote:

I was in the F-22 program and have no clue of what you are talking about regarding cylindrical or pyramidal protrusions.....Same goes for what you are saying about the Agressor -16's...

The F-117 has been flying for years with angular-looking radar reflectors bolted to the fuselage sides during peacetime. I've seen 'em on every airshow static display aircraft.

I've also seen many photos of Tyndall F-22's with a small cylindrical object with rounded ends bolted to the lower fuselage aft of the weapons bay and between the main LG doors... I always wondered, since it's between the airplane's legs, so to speak, shouldn't there be two of them?

I'm sure that we'll eventually see some sort of bolt on doohickey stuck to the side of Lightnings operating near controlled airspace. And of course, transponders can be used to artificially enhance any aircrafts radar signature.

Elite Joined: Jun 29, 2004 Posts: 961 Status: Offline

Boman wrote:

To Roscoe and all,
My question is serious enough, although I greatly appreciate the comic suggestions that have come Very Happy

However, the Viper does fly with special "dummy" `winders, also called AMA pods (Daco`s F-16 Viper book, page 106) to enhance the radar signature.
Falconfixer860261; the protrucions mentioned are the same as those found on the inlet of the 64AS agressor Vipers, ref. Dacos book page 118 (top)
As Danny Carreman is an ex-crew chief I hope he knows what he`s talking about. Wink

Looking forward to more - serious and non-serious - comments Cool

More correctly called AMD (Acceleration monitoring devices) and without going into detail they were not carried to help ATC radars see them. ATC radars use transponders. BTW, last I heard they were no longer being used becasue they were getting old and falling off airplanes...folks on the ground tend to hate objects falling from the sky.

Yes, I have also read in open sources that stealthy aircraft use RCS enhancers. I would surmise that these are not for ATC radar purposes (again, refer to my earlier post on transponders) but rather to mask the true signature from "unfriendly" sensors. Makes sense...we want people to know that lighting up the aircraft isn't going to teach you much...so stay away Smile

Had a Viper guy try to target a B-2 in the Edwards airspace test once, despite specific orders not to. Claimed to lock on at a pretty good range. Turns out he was locked onto a chase plane (F-16B). Got busted big time for that.

Elite Joined: Apr 08, 2004 Posts: 733 Status: Offline

Roscoe wrote:

Had a Viper guy try to target a B-2 in the Edwards airspace test once, despite specific orders not to. Claimed to lock on at a pretty good range. Turns out he was locked onto a chase plane (F-16B). Got busted big time for that.

Spoke with a Lockheed Martin photographer at Dayton several years ago that was going to do some photo work with a B-2 over the airshow. They apparently attempted to 'find' the Spirit after launching out of Wright Patt and said that it basically 'just wasn't there'. He said that they could see the jet before they could detect it.

Mike

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