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Document title: F-35A internal bay with 6 AAMs - F-16.net - The Ultimate F-16 Reference
Original URL: http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopic-t-6331-sid-1a46a9932840f4fea1c066df4a0559f8.html
Printed on: 13 October 2008

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

F-35A internal bay with 6 AAMs



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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Sep 14, 2006 - 12:16 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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This is how it'll fit if they decide to do it.



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Raptor_One
PostPosted: Sep 13, 2006 - 10:29 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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This kind of proposal would get a Lockheed-Martin engineer fired. Very Happy Seriously though, is that line-drawing superimposed on a picture your idea of a valid proposal?
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174Cobra
PostPosted: Sep 13, 2006 - 11:00 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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That would be great, but looks like it would be REALLY crowded with the doors closed...personally, as nice as it would be to see it happen, doesn't seem likely, what with the Raptor having an internal capacity of 8 (6 & 2) AAM's and the Typhoon can carry a boat-load of 'em.

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holy s@*t, there's two of 'em!
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skrip00
PostPosted: Sep 14, 2006 - 12:29 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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IOC first.
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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Sep 14, 2006 - 01:49 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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174Cobra wrote:
That would be great, but looks like it would be REALLY crowded with the doors closed...personally, as nice as it would be to see it happen, doesn't seem likely, what with the Raptor having an internal capacity of 8 (6 & 2) AAM's and the Typhoon can carry a boat-load of 'em.


Actually, it is not all that tight. That is the same approximate clearance as you get in the Raptor's bays. BTW, the tail of the door AMRAAM is not at the end of the bomb bay. The bomb bay is greater than 4.13 meters long. The AMRAAM is only 3.66 meters long and the nose of the door AMRAAM is ahead of that of the bomb payload's. If you scale the the box to the end of the bay it'll be apparent that there is plenty of clearance.
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Corsair1963
PostPosted: Sep 14, 2006 - 05:02 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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dwightlooi wrote:
174Cobra wrote:
That would be great, but looks like it would be REALLY crowded with the doors closed...personally, as nice as it would be to see it happen, doesn't seem likely, what with the Raptor having an internal capacity of 8 (6 & 2) AAM's and the Typhoon can carry a boat-load of 'em.


Actually, it is not all that tight. That is the same approximate clearance as you get in the Raptor's bays. BTW, the tail of the door AMRAAM is not at the end of the bomb bay. The bomb bay is greater than 4.13 meters long. The AMRAAM is only 3.66 meters long and the nose of the door AMRAAM is ahead of that of the bomb payload's. If you scale the the box to the end of the bay it'll be apparent that there is plenty of clearance.


If, I am not mistaken the F-35's (A&C) weapons bay is bigger than the F-22's. As for looking crowded.........just look at many landing gear bays! Take for exampe a F/A-18 Hornet or Super Hornet. There bays are very small yet the take very large and heavy duty landing gear for Carrier Operations. Personally, I can't believe 6 AMRAAM's won't fit.............
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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Sep 15, 2006 - 05:05 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Some rough measurements.



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Raptor_One
PostPosted: Sep 15, 2006 - 07:10 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Why exactly are you wasting your time trying to convince people that Lockheed Martin or some other F-35 subcontractor will be able to engineer the weapons bays to hold one additional AAM? First off, it's not simply a matter of being able to physically fit X number of missiles in each bay. There are structural, aerodynamic and vibrational issues to be considered. I'm sure there are numerous others, but those are just a few I thought up on the spot. Another thing... unless you have the latest CAD files for the JSF's weapons bays, the weapons you're proposing it carry, and the associated pylons/ejectors/etc., you can't actually tell whether things will fit. I'm quite sure the JSF's CAD files (not to mention associated weapons and pylons/ejectors) are classified secret or even top secret, so forget about trying to work things out based on public domain 3-view drawings or, worse yet, photographs.

It would probably take a medium-sized team of skilled engineers a few months to 1) come up with a viable physical design using CATIA, 2) run detailed structural analysis using Pro-E, SolidWorks, or whatever finite element analysis package is best suited for the job, and 3) perform thorough CFD analysis to predict whether the missiles would properly separate from the aircraft throughout the predicted flight envelope. That's just for starters. Those are just a few of the major engineering tasks to be performed before a preliminary design review! LOL! We're not even talking about fabrication here... just computer aided design, structural analysis, and CFD analysis in preparation for a meeting with program managers.

Okay... I'm getting carried away here. But I feel as though you're not taking aerospace engineering very seriously with these drawings of yours. Lockheed Martin is not some fly-by-night startup company manufacturing kit planes. This is serious business. Until there is official word from LM (or some other official source) on plans to expand the JSF's internal AAM capacity, you can rest assured that it may or may not be a possibility. Unless you have access to a team of skilled engineers and the necessary (classified) data, you won't have anything close to a solid argument for 3 AAMs per bay. And assuming you did have access to these things, I doubt you'd be posting the results of your team's analysis for all to see on here. Wink

Anyway, I appreciate your faith in Lockheed Martin. It's a great, talented company that has acheived seemingly impossible feats. I'd rather go on faith that LM will turn the JSF into a serious air superiority fighter based on their impressive track record than speculate. Make no mistake... these superimposed line drawings are nothing but raw, unadulterated speculation. Smile
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dwightlooi
PostPosted: Sep 15, 2006 - 11:24 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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It is all speculation at this point of course. But why shouldn't we discuss these things, and do so based on information that we have? If not, what is the purpose of these forums then?

Nobody is saying that a few line drawings is all it takes to engineer the necessary accessories to fit 6 AAMs internally in the F-35. And nobody is trying to close the case on anything. What I am trying to say is that from the photograph, it LOOKS like it is physically possible should they decide to do it. Remember, back when the F-22 was not rated to carry GBU-32s in the internal bay, there were speculations based on photos of the bay which said that the 1000 poung Mk-83 will probably fit within the bay. Back then of course the whole contention was whether there is enough height in the bay to accomodate fatter Mk-83/GBU-32 instead of the AMRAAM.
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Corsair1963
PostPosted: Sep 15, 2006 - 11:46 PM Reply with quote Back to top
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Raptor_One wrote:
Why exactly are you wasting your time trying to convince people that Lockheed Martin or some other F-35 subcontractor will be able to engineer the weapons bays to hold one additional AAM? First off, it's not simply a matter of being able to physically fit X number of missiles in each bay. There are structural, aerodynamic and vibrational issues to be considered. I'm sure there are numerous others, but those are just a few I thought up on the spot. Another thing... unless you have the latest CAD files for the JSF's weapons bays, the weapons you're proposing it carry, and the associated pylons/ejectors/etc., you can't actually tell whether things will fit. I'm quite sure the JSF's CAD files (not to mention associated weapons and pylons/ejectors) are classified secret or even top secret, so forget about trying to work things out based on public domain 3-view drawings or, worse yet, photographs.

It would probably take a medium-sized team of skilled engineers a few months to 1) come up with a viable physical design using CATIA, 2) run detailed structural analysis using Pro-E, SolidWorks, or whatever finite element analysis package is best suited for the job, and 3) perform thorough CFD analysis to predict whether the missiles would properly separate from the aircraft throughout the predicted flight envelope. That's just for starters. Those are just a few of the major engineering tasks to be performed before a preliminary design review! LOL! We're not even talking about fabrication here... just computer aided design, structural analysis, and CFD analysis in preparation for a meeting with program managers.

Okay... I'm getting carried away here. But I feel as though you're not taking aerospace engineering very seriously with these drawings of yours. Lockheed Martin is not some fly-by-night startup company manufacturing kit planes. This is serious business. Until there is official word from LM (or some other official source) on plans to expand the JSF's internal AAM capacity, you can rest assured that it may or may not be a possibility. Unless you have access to a team of skilled engineers and the necessary (classified) data, you won't have anything close to a solid argument for 3 AAMs per bay. And assuming you did have access to these things, I doubt you'd be posting the results of your team's analysis for all to see on here. Wink

Anyway, I appreciate your faith in Lockheed Martin. It's a great, talented company that has acheived seemingly impossible feats. I'd rather go on faith that LM will turn the JSF into a serious air superiority fighter based on their impressive track record than speculate. Make no mistake... these superimposed line drawings are nothing but raw, unadulterated speculation. Smile



Sounds like you afraid that The F-35 can hold 6-AAM's? All many are saying is that it is very possible that 2-AAM's could fit in the space of one large 2,000lbs class bomb. Surely, it is not in the interest of LM or BAE to highlight any such capability at this stage. Funny, how most of the anti-JSF crowd are afraid to even contemplate even the possibly??? Confused
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Raptor_One
PostPosted: Sep 16, 2006 - 01:00 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Corsair,

While I don't suggest you bore yourself looking over all the posts I've made in the F-35 forum, if you were to do a search you'd find I'm pro-JSF. In other words, I think it's an excellent stealth attack aircraft and, without a doubt, a lethal fighter when loaded with both external and internal A-A missiles. When people have stated here, without any solid reasoning or evidence, that the F-35 won't be maneuverable or "lightning quick", I've asked them to back up their statements. I just don't think it's necessary to be a cheerleader for any aircraft. The F-35 can stand on its own merits. Nothing is to be gained from touting how great you think the JSF will be. A level-headed discussion of what we know about the JSF along with reasonable, intelligent predictions regarding its capabilities (most of which are still unknown or classified) will serve this forum's membership quite well. Speaking authoritatively about an aircraft one knows relatively little about will not. That's just my opinion though.
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Corsair1963
PostPosted: Sep 16, 2006 - 02:19 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Raptor_One wrote:
Corsair,

While I don't suggest you bore yourself looking over all the posts I've made in the F-35 forum, if you were to do a search you'd find I'm pro-JSF. In other words, I think it's an excellent stealth attack aircraft and, without a doubt, a lethal fighter when loaded with both external and internal A-A missiles. When people have stated here, without any solid reasoning or evidence, that the F-35 won't be maneuverable or "lightning quick", I've asked them to back up their statements. I just don't think it's necessary to be a cheerleader for any aircraft. The F-35 can stand on its own merits. Nothing is to be gained from touting how great you think the JSF will be. A level-headed discussion of what we know about the JSF along with reasonable, intelligent predictions regarding its capabilities (most of which are still unknown or classified) will serve this forum's membership quite well. Speaking authoritatively about an aircraft one knows relatively little about will not. That's just my opinion though.


Well, when you get down to the nuts and bolts the general public really knows very little about the Raptors "true" capabilities. Yet, many on this very forum state rumor and secondhand information as fact? Also, it is odd that you criticize me for being a cheerleader. Yet, the name you selected for this forum is "Raptor One" Of course you have no loyalty to the F-22 Raptor nor could any of your opinions be considered bias? Confused Personally, I have no problem with anyone being a "cheerleader"! What you think a Viper Pilot isn't a cheerleader for the F-16! Shocked Further, if you removed Opinions, Speculation and Hypothetical from this forum there would be very little to talk about! Shocked One final point............even "if" you do know more than I do on a given subject. I clearly have the right to express my opinion freely and just like the old saying goes "there is always a bigger fish in the pond" So, even as much as you may think your an "Authority" on a subject. I can guarantee you that many others on this very forum know more than you!
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Raptor_One
PostPosted: Sep 16, 2006 - 03:30 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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"Raptor One" is a callsign I've had for a very long time on internet flight sim forums. It's a callsign I made up for myself about 8 years ago when I started playing flight sims. I honestly feel a bit silly these days now that the F-22 is operational and people are typing Raptor left and right. But I figured I'd run into people from other forums here. It's just easier not to change my callsign at this point.

Anyway, I'm no expert in anything at this point in my life. Whatever knowledge I have, I try to share. I appreciate gaining knowledge from people on this forum in return. I'm just not sure what all this posturing is for with respect to the F-35. Put me in Michigan's Big House tomorrow (I think it's a home game) and I'll be yelling GO BLUE all afternoon long. And I'm sure I'd be cheerleading for the F-35 at an airshow. But what's the point of it here?

Sincerely,

Raptor One Very Happy
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idesof
PostPosted: Sep 16, 2006 - 04:03 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Corsair1963 wrote:
Raptor_One wrote:
Corsair,

While I don't suggest you bore yourself looking over all the posts I've made in the F-35 forum, if you were to do a search you'd find I'm pro-JSF. In other words, I think it's an excellent stealth attack aircraft and, without a doubt, a lethal fighter when loaded with both external and internal A-A missiles. When people have stated here, without any solid reasoning or evidence, that the F-35 won't be maneuverable or "lightning quick", I've asked them to back up their statements. I just don't think it's necessary to be a cheerleader for any aircraft. The F-35 can stand on its own merits. Nothing is to be gained from touting how great you think the JSF will be. A level-headed discussion of what we know about the JSF along with reasonable, intelligent predictions regarding its capabilities (most of which are still unknown or classified) will serve this forum's membership quite well. Speaking authoritatively about an aircraft one knows relatively little about will not. That's just my opinion though.


Well, when you get down to the nuts and bolts the general public really knows very little about the Raptors "true" capabilities. Yet, many on this very forum state rumor and secondhand information as fact? Also, it is odd that you criticize me for being a cheerleader. Yet, the name you selected for this forum is "Raptor One" Of course you have no loyalty to the F-22 Raptor nor could any of your opinions be considered bias? Confused Personally, I have no problem with anyone being a "cheerleader"! What you think a Viper Pilot isn't a cheerleader for the F-16! Shocked Further, if you removed Opinions, Speculation and Hypothetical from this forum there would be very little to talk about! Shocked One final point............even "if" you do know more than I do on a given subject. I clearly have the right to express my opinion freely and just like the old saying goes "there is always a bigger fish in the pond" So, even as much as you may think your an "Authority" on a subject. I can guarantee you that many others on this very forum know more than you!


I think you will find that Raptor_One has a very annoying propensity for naysaying anything he or she refuses to believe despite ample evidence presented to him/her. Of course, you have every right to speculate to your heart's content without going so far as to state your speculations as fact, such as has been the case in other discussions regarding alleged engagements between Raptors and Eurofighters. And Raptor_One is also quite mistaken in his or her assertion that the F-35 does not need any "cheerleaders." Quite to the contrary, considering the fight it is facing and will face in the U.S. Congress for survival, the more people are behind this fighter, the more likely it is that it will be successful. So, carry on and keep singing the praises of your favorite fighters if you damned well please!
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Corsair1963
PostPosted: Sep 16, 2006 - 04:19 AM Reply with quote Back to top
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Raptor_One wrote:
"Raptor One" is a callsign I've had for a very long time on internet flight sim forums. It's a callsign I made up for myself about 8 years ago when I started playing flight sims. I honestly feel a bit silly these days now that the F-22 is operational and people are typing Raptor left and right. But I figured I'd run into people from other forums here. It's just easier not to change my callsign at this point.

Anyway, I'm no expert in anything at this point in my life. Whatever knowledge I have, I try to share. I appreciate gaining knowledge from people on this forum in return. I'm just not sure what all this posturing is for with respect to the F-35. Put me in Michigan's Big House tomorrow (I think it's a home game) and I'll be yelling GO BLUE all afternoon long. And I'm sure I'd be cheerleading for the F-35 at an airshow. But what's the point of it here?

Sincerely,

Raptor One Very Happy


Well, I'm not sure how you took my comments as cheerleading or posturing? I just stated that I believe there was room for two AAM's in place of one 2000lbs bomb. Clearly, that was just my personal opinion...........Maybe we aren't so differnet after all? I grew up in Michigan and went to a small College in Western part of the State. My Cousin is a Lawyer and a Graduate of the University of Michigan. (Class of 8Cool So, my family are all huge U of M Fans and just like you I enjoy a good Airshow too! Regardless, I consider the matter closed................til the next debate! Smile


Oh, I almost forgot....................GO BLUE! Cool
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