Forum: F-22A Raptor

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 19, 2004 - 09:19 AM Posts: 1092

The main purpose for a Cobra-like maneuver is to generate an overshoot. The maneuver will not look like a Cobra performed in airshows, but the angle of attack used to generate a rapid overshoot to get a guy off your tail should be as high as possible to generate as much drag as possible. You're using your entire aircraft to generate drag, not just air brakes. Anyone who thinks generating an overshoot in a dogfight is not a valid tactic should try doing some simulated dogfights in something like Falcon 4.0. That's a realistic enough PC simulation for basic dogfighting when flown against another skilled "virtual pilot" (i.e. multiplayer). The AI is just too easy to defeat, and of no real use for realistic dogfights. Mind you, the tactics are going to change depending on what weapons you're armed with. You generally select guns only if you're looking to test out your skills in basic fighter maneuvers and gunnery. If you add in any sort of missile (even rear aspect only heaters), you get an entirely different sort of engagement.

The reason why you need to be good at basic fighter maneuvers is for when all else fails. There are countermeasures for everything and missiles sometimes just miss or fail to function properly. Sometimes you get surprised too. What happens if you're somehow detected in your F-22 and only realize that someone's discovered you as they're about to fire on you from 6 o'clock? Can you say evasive maneuvers? Can you say overshoot? Can you say chaff and flares? Yep... all of those will immediately come into play, and so will your jet's ability to perform radical maneuvers in a controlled, intelligent fashion. Why is BFM still practiced when most engagements will be ACM (multiple friendlies against multiple enemies)? I dunno... maybe your wingman gets shot down but takes out 1 of 2 bandits before hitting the silk. Then it's just you and the other guy and maybe you're in visual range. Combat is unpredictable and it's good to be ready for anything... like MacGyver. Very Happy

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Active Member Joined: Nov 22, 2004 - 09:20 PM Posts: 134

bf-fly wrote:

Some one can correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Cobra also spoof a Pulse Doppler radar? A Doppler relies on movement for detection, a Cobra can momentarily make the SU disappear on the radar of an F-15. I believe that's been tested in the sim successfully by the US Air Force dozens of times. Each time it works, each time the F-15 loses it's as*. (Perhaps I'm thinking of something else, but I don't think so.)

I'm familiar with the scenario you describe, and strongly suspect that it is being used by the USAF solely to make their case for the F-22. Basically, the Flanker is aware that an F-15 is looking for it, so it slows down so much (and/or flies at low altitude at precisely 90° from the direction of the approaching F-15) that the F-15's radar ignores the returned Doppler-shifted signal as clutter or noise, rendering the Flanker "invisible." The Flanker then lies in wait, using its super-ultra-powerful acceleration and climbing ability (still inferior to that of the F-15, but the public doesn't know that) to position itself to pounce on the hapless, fatally inferior Eagle. Rolling Eyes

It's an old trick (that admittedly could work sometimes, in theory) being used as an example to justify new toys.

In other words, because of this one tactic, which is not necessarily unique to the Flanker (the F/A-18 could probably do it just as well), the F-15 is supposedly hopelessly obsolete today, and we'll all be dead without the F-22. All I can say is that there are more sincere, legitimate ways to make the case for the F-22 (which I fully support). Otherwise, we could simply make a few adjustments or upgrades to the F-15's radar if we're so worried about Flankers defeating us en masse with Cobra maneuvers. Laughing

checksixx wrote:

bf-fly wrote:

Some one can correct me if I'm wrong, but doesn't the Cobra also spoof a Pulse Doppler radar?

No it doesn't. Also the aircraft airspeed does not drop to zero when performing that maneuver.

I would guess that it depends on how the returns are filtered by the radar's processor. If you can get an aircraft to fly slowly enough, I suppose that it would theoretically be possible that the radar would filter it out. I doubt that this would happen with a modern fire-control radar, though, and even the original APG-63 can be adjusted manually to overcome this issue if it really existed in the real world outside of the simulator. This is moot in any case because the origin of this story, I believe, is a contrived scenario being used by the USAF as a cheesy sales pitch.

Forum: F-22A Raptor

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