Forum: F-35 Lightning II

This thread is a joke right? Talk about flame bait and trolls this is really what it's all about. the part I find really funny are that many of the trolls in this thread are complaining about some people questioning F-22 and the JSF on a few other threads. What a joke! Some of the French comments are just childish.

The French are never going to buy any JSF. Their policy for better or worse has always been to buy French unless absolutely necessary. There is nothing wrong with that. So what the Raffy may not be the best gen 4.5 AC in the world. It is still a Gen 4.5 AC and it will do the job the French want it to do. Sure Exports would be nice but that is not the be all and end all of the program. Independence from another foreign power is.

As for sharing technology and trusting the French. They should not take it personal. We share far too much with the British too. It's bad policy to begin with but if you need even more evidence just take a look at the poll numbers on their attitude toward the US. It's only going to get worse unless they decide to do something about it.

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Thumper3181 - you a political science major?

I trust the Brits and Aussies more then any other nations on this planet (my opinion).

I also lived and worked there for over 13 years (collectively) while on active duty.

Yes the "youth" of their nation, as in any nation these days, like to bitch and complain but they have been at our side in conflict since WWII (as you well know).

Why do you feel they get too much from us and how do you know what they get, what are your sources..because I know exactly what they get from us (within limitations of my current position in Foreign Disclosure who's details I cant revile), militarily and economically (it is my job to know)...what's your take or beef on your statement anyway.

You seem to have a chip on your shoulder...do you and if so why?

Meathook, lets start from the bottom and work our way up.

Meathook said

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You seem to have a chip on your shoulder...do you and if so why?

Meathook said in a prior post

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France can kiss my US...a$$

How do you come up with me having a chip on my shoulder? There are those in this thread who are trolling far more than anyone they accused of trolling in other threads and I say the thread is a joke?

True I believe that we share far too much tech with the UK. It has nothing to do with trust. While I am sure there are still many people in the UK and Australia who you can trust, never forget that national interests and demographics change over time. The UK you remember is no longer. Read the Guardian lately? Have you visited the BBC website? Hell just the other day one of the "good" brits (Melanie Philips) wrote a piece in USA Today lamenting the turn for the worse our relations have taken. she should have published in the Guardian. Please read it.

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/ne ... 15.art.htm

Would you trust George Galloway? Would you trust some of the more militant back benchers in their government?

The point is times change.Allies change. Maybe the UK still is that stalwart ally you remember. Maybe it is not.

I am an engineer who is old enough to have seen the pendulum swing.

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True I believe that we share far too much tech with the UK. It has nothing to do with trust. While I am sure there are still many people in the UK and Australia who you can trust, never forget that national interests and demographics change over time. The UK you remember is no longer. Read the Guardian lately? Have you visited the BBC website? Hell just the other day one of the "good" brits (Melanie Philips) wrote a piece in USA Today lamenting the turn for the worse our relations have taken. she should have published in the Guardian. Please read it.

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/ne ... 15.art.htm

Would you trust George Galloway? Would you trust some of the more militant back benchers in their government?

The point is times change.Allies change. Maybe the UK still is that stalwart ally you remember. Maybe it is not.

I am an engineer who is old enough to have seen the pendulum swing.

*Slaps head* Politics. George Galloway is one of the most untrusted people in politics, he was thrown out of the Labour Party but founded his own party of which he has one constituency. Militant back benchers? The Bush administration??? I'd do some reading on some of the big players in the Bush administration. Tech transfer? If you didn't get tech from the Uk and Europe, the US would not be in the postion it is now.

The media twists and exaagerates things to get an audience, its all dribble. You say outragous comments like that and think they're true. I'll tell you I think the Uk is in the position to not trust the US, heck if we weren't such a strong ally we'd certainly wouldn't be stuck in Iraq and Afghanistan at the moment.

Sorry its politics and I'm happy for my post to be deleted as long as the previous post is as well.

Edit: I've read that article properly and I can't belive how exagerated it is. Thats has to be the funniest yet most infuriating article (as people are believing it) I've read. Utter Utter rubbish, if you believe that then I was mistaken about your intelliegence.

Well I too am old enough (least I think I am, I entered military service in 1969) so you have a pretty good idea of my age. Twenty six years and sixty countries later, throwing in three wars (which I was directly in two armed - Nam and Bosnia being shot at). I too think I have a firm grip on who I trust based on my own personal experiences, I was wondering, have you been in uniform (just wondering, been overseas?).

It gives you a different feel and life experience if you have, kind of a been there and done that opinion of things. I don't put much into politics although there are times I wish I could really influence it (my own way) but since that will never happen, I try and deal with the cards I can control or influence (but I understand it is human to complain too).

It might be me but you appear to give the appearance of an attitude in an earlier posting...I don't like cutting and pasting excerpts from past postings but the "SOB comment" of course would not be taken lightly by most, to those that read it, can be misunderstood...case in point. I admit, I am out of touch with British politics, it was always conducted in a way I did not agree with, too much BS and yelling and screaming, not the way civilizations should conduct discussing (my opinion) so I don't pay attention to it.

I worry about my son and son-in-law in harms way at the moment. I also believe any 'edge" we the USA can develop, we should maintain without sharing unless it is a far lesser version where we still hold the major cards . Anyway, If I pegged you wrong, it wont be my first error in judgment, nor the last, you just kind of came off ruff.

Maybe it is me, it made the ask the question I did.....

Meathook
You probably have 10 or 15 years on me. Overseas yes, uniform no. Was in AOCS mid 80s but I washed out due to a medical condition. I always wanted to fly Intruders.

Anyway that was then this is now. Sorry about the SOB remark. I don;t recall if it was aimed at you or not, but either way take my apologies. It just seems like there is a group of people on this forum for which there can be no debate.

My support for the military is second to none. There are few weapon systems I do not like. I make a good salary so I know that I am also paying for them. That said there should be nothing wrong with discussing the merits about one or another AC., strategy or weapon without resorting to the antics that some on this site had done. I was just reflecting their behavior right back.

I worry for our nation and the direction we are going I very much support our operations in Iraq and Afghanistan but I am not sure we are going about bringing them to a successful conclusion effectively. More so I worry that despite what really are minor setbacks we have not learned our lesson and we are eventually going to cut and run in Iraq. In my mind that would be an unmitigated disaster on par with the Vietnam debacle. The shame of it will be that we will have allowed history to repeat itself.

I totally agree with you about any edge we develop we should maintain without sharing. It is not selfishness it is out of national interest. The JSF we will be exporting will not be a far lessor version nor will we still hold the major cards once we give the UK access to the source code that runs the jet.

Speaks the Truth
Regardless of what they did George Galloway was part of the party in power. You know as well as I do that there are plenty of people in the UK government who are anti US. What about that poll that was taken awhile back that had a majority of Britons feeling that America is the biggest problem in the world? Don;t make me do Google searches. You know I am right.

Lastly, lets not get in to Afghanistan and Iraq. Tony Blair did what any competent leader would have done. fighting terrorism and defanging Iraq is just as much in the UKs interest as it is in ours. It had nothing to do with trust and everything to do with national interest.

Much has changed between the US and UK. Are they still close allies. I think so. Are they as close as they where during WWII and the cold war. No. The shame of it is that for most Americans the warm feelings toward the British still exist. I really do suggest anyone in the UK read

http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/ne ... 15.art.htm

Thumper3181 - Got ya...take care

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Speaks the Truth
Regardless of what they did George Galloway was part of the party in power. You know as well as I do that there are plenty of people in the UK government who are anti US. What about that poll that was taken awhile back that had a majority of Britons feeling that America is the biggest problem in the world? Don;t make me do Google searches. You know I am right.

Lastly, lets not get in to Afghanistan and Iraq. Tony Blair did what any competent leader would have done. fighting terrorism and defanging Iraq is just as much in the UKs interest as it is in ours. It had nothing to do with trust and everything to do with national interest.

Much has changed between the US and UK. Are they still close allies. I think so. Are they as close as they where during WWII and the cold war. No. The shame of it is that for most Americans the warm feelings toward the British still exist. I really do suggest anyone in the UK read

You know George Galloway has met Saddam Hussein the same amount of times as Donald Rumsfeld, with the difference being that Rumsfeld was selling Hussein weapons. Ok polls, if these polls you speak of are credible I can give you a nice explanation. Forgetting Afghanistan (as that had a legit reason for invasion) the invasion of Iraq came down to Mr Bush and his negligence of the UN and ultimately led to a wasteful and unjustified campaign. The UK followed the US decision and when our troops come home in body bags it doesn't help the US's reputation amongst Britons.

Where have I seen this before, oh thats right when France refused to take military action against Iraq and used their VETO in the UN. I seem to remember US citizens boycotting French restaurants, renaming French fries to freedom fries, US restaurant owners removing French wines from their wine menus etc. You might say the same is happening now with Britons towards Americans although not as extreme.

Who you can blame? Try the Bush administration! The Bush administration has really degraded the US's reputation worldwide. Oh and don't believe everything you read that is media related, they exaggerate and bend the truth to make a story that people will read.

Anyway enough politics!

Speaker you just don't get it. Your hatred for the Bush admin like that of so many of your country man has clouded your thought process.

George Galloway was used as an example of someone highly placed in your government who is vehemently anti American. Lets add the editorial staff of the BBC half of the Labor government, the mayor of London and about 1/2 of your population. The number of times Donald Rumsfeld has met Saddam Hussein is irrelevant. That said you got your facts wrong. Go do some research. Look who was selling him the vast amount of weapons during that time. By far the top two weapon suppliers and economic supporters of his regime where the USSR and Europe. Our contribution paled in comparison to yours.

It's unfortunate you have resorted to a rant and have injected politics into what was up until now a reasonable conversation. You rant just proves the point why should we trust or bother working with Europe anymore.

If you people in Britain cannot see the reason why you are in Iraq then our interests no longer coincide. Again you help prove the point that alliances come and go. We would be crazy to transfer technology to you.

After all our nation has done for you from WWII right up through the Falklands Britain has a lot of nerve acting as they do. You tell me how you could not have retaken the Falklands without your carriers. HAHAHA. Try you could not have retaken them without us supplying AIM-9ls for your harriers. And us providing logistical support, and us providing satellite imagery. How pathetic you people sound when you start whining about how you are just a lapdog of the US. You are like Canadians. You have a giant inferiority complex and you very much resent your benefactor.

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Speaker you just don't get it. Your hatred for the Bush admin like that of so many of your country man has clouded your thought process.

Not a fan of the Bush Administration and neither are many Americans, I hardly hate the Bush Administration.

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George Galloway was used as an example of someone highly placed in your government who is vehemently anti American. Lets add the editorial staff of the BBC half of the Labor government, the mayor of London and about 1/2 of your population. The number of times Donald Rumsfeld has met Saddam Hussein is irrelevant. That said you got your facts wrong. Go do some research. Look who was selling him the vast amount of weapons during that time. By far the top two weapon suppliers and economic supporters of his regime where the USSR and Europe. Our contribution paled in comparison to yours.

Negative views about the US in the UK are mostly because of the disastrous Iraq campaign which will result in a cut & run. George Galloway was thrown out of the Labour Party, unfortunately you get corrupt people in every organisation and its no different in the US. George Galloway is very much an unpopular man in the UK. Perhaps you need to do some research, the three main supporters of Saddam were the US, USSR and France. Also it can be noted the US was selling Iran weapons which became known as the Iran-Contra Affair, another example of scandalous people in Government except this was the US government.

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It's unfortunate you have resorted to a rant and have injected politics into what was up until now a reasonable conversation. You rant just proves the point why should we trust or bother working with Europe anymore.

Well I believe it was you who injected the politics, and really I shouldn't have replied to it. What you have said in this post and some previous posts are ranting.

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If you people in Britain cannot see the reason why you are in Iraq then our interests no longer coincide. Again you help prove the point that alliances come and go. We would be crazy to transfer technology to you.

Well many Americans are questioning the reasons behind the Iraq war. It was an unjustified campaign and we can't leave now because the country will fall into anarchy.

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After all our nation has done for you from WWII right up through the Falklands Britain has a lot of nerve acting as they do. You tell me how you could not have retaken the Falklands without your carriers. HAHAHA. Try you could not have retaken them without us supplying AIM-9ls for your harriers. And us providing logistical support, and us providing satellite imagery. How pathetic you people sound when you start whining about how you are just a lapdog of the US. You are like Canadians. You have a giant inferiority complex and you very much resent your benefactor.

This is two ways here buddy, I could say the same thing about all the stuff the UK has done for the US. WW2 was not America saving Britain's a$$ as so many Americans believe, although Roosevelt wanted to help the British he could not get the support from his country to do so (America was still recovering from WW1). The US entered the war because the Axis powers (Japan and later Germany) declared war on the US. The US did not win the war, but the war couldn't have been won without the US, the same goes with the UK & USSR (all 3 allies were required for victory) The UK has given the US a lot of tech especially during the cold war and vice versa. The cold war was won because of the close cooperation between the Americans and British, of which I think the cooperation should continue. The US and UK comliment each other nicely and just to let you know, the UK is not turning on the US. Just the US isn't so popular at the moment like France wasn't popular in the US a few years ago.

Ok this has gone extremely off-topic so I suggest we stop this little argument unless its related to the Rafale, if you want to continue this discussion then make a thread in the off-topic area.

SpeakTheTruth wrote:

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Speaker you just don't get it. Your hatred for the Bush admin like that of so many of your country man has clouded your thought process.

Not a fan of the Bush Administration and neither are many Americans, I hardly hate the Bush Administration.

Quote:

George Galloway was used as an example of someone highly placed in your government who is vehemently anti American. Lets add the editorial staff of the BBC half of the Labor government, the mayor of London and about 1/2 of your population. The number of times Donald Rumsfeld has met Saddam Hussein is irrelevant. That said you got your facts wrong. Go do some research. Look who was selling him the vast amount of weapons during that time. By far the top two weapon suppliers and economic supporters of his regime where the USSR and Europe. Our contribution paled in comparison to yours.

Negative views about the US in the UK are mostly because of the disastrous Iraq campaign which will result in a cut & run. George Galloway was thrown out of the Labour Party, unfortunately you get corrupt people in every organisation and its no different in the US. George Galloway is very much an unpopular man in the UK. Perhaps you need to do some research, the three main supporters of Saddam were the US, USSR and France. Also it can be noted the US was selling Iran weapons which became known as the Iran-Contra Affair, another example of scandalous people in Government except this was the US government.

Quote:

It's unfortunate you have resorted to a rant and have injected politics into what was up until now a reasonable conversation. You rant just proves the point why should we trust or bother working with Europe anymore.

Well I believe it was you who injected the politics, and really I shouldn't have replied to it. What you have said in this post and some previous posts are ranting.

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If you people in Britain cannot see the reason why you are in Iraq then our interests no longer coincide. Again you help prove the point that alliances come and go. We would be crazy to transfer technology to you.

Well many Americans are questioning the reasons behind the Iraq war. It was an unjustified campaign and we can't leave now because the country will fall into anarchy.

Quote:

After all our nation has done for you from WWII right up through the Falklands Britain has a lot of nerve acting as they do. You tell me how you could not have retaken the Falklands without your carriers. HAHAHA. Try you could not have retaken them without us supplying AIM-9ls for your harriers. And us providing logistical support, and us providing satellite imagery. How pathetic you people sound when you start whining about how you are just a lapdog of the US. You are like Canadians. You have a giant inferiority complex and you very much resent your benefactor.

This is two ways here buddy, I could say the same thing about all the stuff the UK has done for the US. WW2 was not America saving Britain's a$$ as so many Americans believe, although Roosevelt wanted to help the British he could not get the support from his country to do so (America was still recovering from WW1). The US entered the war because the Axis powers (Japan and later Germany) declared war on the US. The US did not win the war, but the war couldn't have been won without the US, the same goes with the UK & USSR (all 3 allies were required for victory) The UK has given the US a lot of tech especially during the cold war and vice versa. The cold war was won because of the close cooperation between the Americans and British, of which I think the cooperation should continue. The US and UK comliment each other nicely and just to let you know, the UK is not turning on the US. Just the US isn't so popular at the moment like France wasn't popular in the US a few years ago.

Ok this has gone extremely off-topic so I suggest we stop this little argument unless its related to the Rafale, if you want to continue this discussion then make a thread in the off-topic area.

Very well said.......................which speaks volumes about the relationship between the US and UK. Very Happy

Ain't going to happen. Even if the Lightning is superior to the Rafale, does someone really think the French would buy the Lightning over the Rafale? Give me a break!! I think they would buy Typhoons instead! Laughing

ArrowHawk wrote:

Ain't going to happen. Even if the Lightning is superior to the Rafale, does someone really think the French would buy the Lightning over the Rafale? Give me a break!! I think they would buy Typhoons instead! Laughing

No way! The French will rather buy their own junk than buy foreign treasures. That is the way it is going to be. They won't buy the Typhoon instead, they may by more M2000s or whatever else out of their stables over it regardless of effectiveness, value or availability.

I hate to say it, but you all need to go back to what this topic was about in the first place. Thumper and Speaker cool your heels and shut up for two minutes, instead of bashing each others countries and heritage. You are both looking at small pictures and forgetting larger ones. You also are acting very ethnocentric, but we won't go there now.

To be honest and I'll admit it I believe in what the US, my home, is doing in Iraq today. It may not be popular, but the saying I remember most in life is this..."What is popular isn't always right, and what is right isn't always popular." Speaker you say it will inevitably lead to a cut and run...well haven't run yet is all I can say to you, and Thumper cool your jets about who owes who and who supplied what to whom.

Iran-Contra was a bigger pictures in itself, and it was actually an attempt by the US to overthrow a communist regime in South America, not a weapons selling venture to Iran. That sadly was the way it had to be, albeit both are illegal activities to perform anyway. Also I see it that Britain had a hand in starting a second World War because it was angry at the country that started the first, and then was passive about it. I also know that the US is the reason Iran is the way it is, and that we supplied weapons to Saddam when he fought Iran several years ago. I know my history and I know my facts we have all made mistakes, countries have been scarred by them, and some quite literally have been scarred.

What you need to stop doing is looking at hindsight it isn't worth it. Hindsight allows us to see what we could have done or should have done it doesn't necessarily help the future one bit. No move on and learn, but don't look back and don't think back. If every kept holding grudges and kept the opinions you two have laid out of countries that have been close Allies now for well over sixty years we would still be fighting each other. No, stop bickering amongst yourselves and be glad that someone else actually would stand with you rather than hide behind you, or better not stab you.

Sorry, about this post completely off topic, but this is the way the world needs to be at times...allies are allies. My opinion is this if a British soldier is willing to lay down beside one of ours on the battlefield and die there on that battlefield he is not just an ally he is a friend. To me our (the US's) allies have earned my respect and that access to technology we might not want others to have.

France has done no such thing in over 60 years since the end of World War 2 either the United States or Britain has had to come to the end of France in some way. No, France is no friend when they will hide behind other countries men and women in uniform and watch them die. But the high regard I have for the other countries that stick with us is absolute, so what if a few people say some bad things about one country every once in awhile, we have all made mistakes, countries have made mistakes. That is the way of the world, but don't sit here and isolate yourselves from each other on those differences. That's not the way of the world.

Now on topic France never has and never will want anything to do with American technology. In honest opinion they won't simply because it was designed with American engineering at its heart. Do I care really? No, but that is how it goes they won't, they never have, and they never will. Such is the way of things.

hp9577
I tried to let this drop but after two days of inactivity you and Corsair bring it up again therefore I feel compelled to reply.

First off, look at my original post about this thread. I felt that the entire thread was flame bait chock full of trolls thumping their American superiority chests.

I pointed out that the French are like any other ally. They are our friends when our interests converge and not our friends when they don't. Nothing different except unlike the British they are a bit more open about it. The British on the other hand constantly look to take advantage of the non existent (except for some misguided Americans) relationship we supposedly have with them.

Alliances change over time in unpredictable ways. We should maximize them and we should always seek common ground but the fact is they change over time. A really good example of this is Vietnam. Look at how our alliance with them is blooming. Right now we do not share much with the French and the British are following the same trend. At the very least we are competitors in many areas. Why should we help BAE when they market the Typhoon and so many other weapons systems that are direct competitors to our own. Why should we help Rolls Royce for P&W out of the jet engine market? That is what you are doing when we fun them to develop the alternate JSF engine with GE.

For the record it was speaker of truth who brought up politics. I simply said we should not be too trusting of any foreign power. He brought up GWB and GWII.

Lastly I leave you with this. If it where not for the French assisting us 225 years ago, the US would probably still be a British colony.

The Raffy is a fine 4.5 gen fighter and it serves the French well. There is no need to bash it. It comes off as petty and arrogant.

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

What if... France dumps the Rafale for the F-35?