Forum: F-35 Lightning II

Well, the F/A-18E is technically the newer design.

Quote:

Any failure in export markets is totally irrelevant. All that says is that other countries do not have the same requirements as France. France does not need exports in order to afford Rafales. It's future development & production is fully funded.

Without exports, the Rafale's lifespan becomes inherently expensive.

France is in major competition with cheaper Russian-made aircraft that offer similar capabilities. As well as the Typhoon, the Gripen, the F-35, the F-15, the F-16, and maybe the F-22A.

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RonO wrote

<<MHO this thread is the dumbest I've seen for a long time.

France has developed and is building Rafale to meet its own needs. Any failure in export markets is totally irrelevant. All that says is that other countries do not have the same requirements as France. France does not need exports in order to afford Rafales. It's future development & production is fully funded.>>

You are hilarious.. In the past France has always been at the forefront of Fighter Aircraft Exporting Countries. France can't afford to lose that status which is of utmost importance to worlds major powers ( whether of not France belongs to this category is a debatable point if you ask me ) .This is the main reason why France is desperately and frantically looking for potential customers for Rafale. LoL, This has nothing to do with costs or funding of the Rafale to meet its own needs.

You are right! the idea that France might abandon the Rafale in favor of the F-35 is very dumb indeed ,but your above statement is even more Laughing

<<Last but not least: Why would the French even bother continuing the Rafale? Its a failure in the export market. The market in which it needs to succeed. By the time it does become competative, the F-35 will be available.>>

Rafale is certainly a technical success but a commercial failure. Dassault needs exports in order to reduce unit costs of 294 fighters initially ordered. Rumor has it that French Ministry of Defence is going to take much less than the original quantity as a result of budget constraints.

1. Most fighters of French AF (Mirage III/IV/V, Mirage F1, Jugar, early Mirage-2000C and Mirage-2000N) and Navy (F-8P and Super Etendard) that are needed to be replaced by Rafale reach their end of life during 1997~2015. The F-35's schedule for exportation (post-2015, or even later for France since it didn't invest JSF plan at first) just can't meet French requirement.

2. It seems that USA governemnt doesn't like to share its stealthy technology with France ~ After UK decided to cooperate with France to build its future aircraft carriers (CVF plan), USA government has warned UK don't reveal the secret information of JSF to France during the cooperation.

3. It is impossible for USA to let France AF and Navy use F-35 to execute some unique and important missions that can be done by Rafale, such as incorporating French nuclear cruise missile (ASMP-A) for nuclear strike mission.

<<2. It seems that USA governemnt doesn't like to share its stealthy technology with France ~ After UK decided to cooperate with France to build its future aircraft carriers (CVF plan), USA government has warned UK don't reveal the secret information of JSF to France during the cooperation>>

Why should the US share any technology with France? The US has also asked the UK not to exchange any technolgy concerning the Astute class nuclear subs which are under construction in the UK which contains classified US technology.

Why do the Americans hate the French really? Is it because the French helped the USA fight free or is it because the French where the only ones in NATO that didn always listen to the USA commands and was the onlyone that had the guts not to be a mindless lapdog?

Im sorry but I had to say this.

<<Why do the Americans hate the French really?>>

Why do the French hate America really? Is it because America helped them to fight free from Germans in both WW's. One must also come up with a plausible explanation for this in order to answer the above question.

Driver wrote:

Im sorry but I had to say this.

No, you did not! Big No No

I suggest you brace yourself for some flaming before the admins step in to stop it.

BTW, I'm English with more than a passing interest in military history so do you really want a list of why everyone hates French policy....? Devil

Shadowstreak27 is right...This is not the right forum to deal with the subject. Actually,the Americans don't hate France ,they simply don't trust the French and don't regard France as an ally anymore. This deep mistrust manifests itself in commercial relations as well. Remember the recent merger between Lucent and Alcatel. Shortly before the merger,Lucent decided to spin off all divisions that were working on sensitive technologies.But as I said,this is not the right forum.

duplex wrote:

Shadowstreak27 is right...This is not the right forum to deal with the subject. Actually,the Americans don't hate France ,they simply don't trust the French and don't regard France as an ally anymore. This deep mistrust manifests itself in commercial relations as well. Remember the recent merger between Lucent and Alcatel. Shortly before the merger,Lucent decided to spin off all divisions that were working on sensitive technologies.But as I said,this is not the right forum.

True true but one last thing just respond to whats posted here. Commercialy the Americans are worse what we call american high risk investors are rampaging threw europe destroying companies and selling cutting them up etc. so that's no valid argument. But ok I get it Americans distrust France like Europeans distrust Americans. (its true In the EU and even the UK 67% of the poppulation believes that America is twice the threat to world order peace and nuclear holocost then North Korea and Iran put together I dont fully agree but still.)

Look, the whole issue is: Can France retain its current capabilities moving to the F-35? Would it be better off with the F-35? Thats actually the whole point of the thread.

skrip00 wrote:

Can France retain its current capabilities moving to the F-35?

No, that can't work :
- Single engine vs dual engine (the latter being prefered for low level flights where bird strikes add risks)
- Much lower bring back weight (Navy)
- Loss of nuke strikes capability
- Little stealth benefits when configured to deliver 2 SCALP/Apache or 6 AASM at extreme ranges (1800 nm)
- Little stealth benefits when configured to deliver A2G weapons while carrying a full set of AAM (IR+EM medium and long range) for self escort.

And a few more...

The military is an extension of the government and what the government wants is a home grown combat aircraft...not to mention the fact that the country we are talking about has a government that despises the United States as a whole. Do you think they will buy an aircraft that is manufactured by the US, no. They will support their country just as we support ours, no matter what that means. To be honest inevitably all things boil down to affiliations and alliances, but that is how the world works now.

It isn't about what a plane can and can't do, really unless you have two or more companies competeing for the title like we always have then it is. In truth in the international market its whose team do you want to play for when it comes to military technology and what ramifications does buying this plane from this country have over buying this plane from this country. Sadly this is how it is, you can be willing to offer a man a shovel, but he'd rather dig with his hands. Maybe one day things will be different for now this is how it is.

duplex wrote:

Actually,the Americans don't hate France ,they simply don't trust the French and don't regard France as an ally anymore.

What would cause this...... Gee, I don't know....

Maybe having the French rearm IRAQ after 1991 had something to do with it.

France can kiss my US...a$$

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

What if... France dumps the Rafale for the F-35?