Forum: F-35 Lightning II

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Yet another misunderstanding of your own.
RBE-2 performance (search/track range) is in par with RDY (Mirage 2000-5). It has been said to be "fatally flawed" because it's a PESA, not an AESA. It combines the weaknesses of both AESA (decreased detection range at high sweep angles) and MESA (single TWT). It's also flawed because it's less attractive on export when compared to AESA.

No misunderstanding, the RBE2 sucks. Simple as that. It has poor range, and poor capabilities. France has sacrificed airframes in order to secure funding for a long and expensive development for a replacement.

Care to explain Rafale's export failures?

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Rafale will definately get some sales in the future, most likely from M2000 operators that are heavily reliant on France. Basically all the nations that want the best they can buy within their political spectrum (either F-35 or Typhoon) will no purchase Rafale as it is poor compared to them. But countries with no other choice will get Rafale.

Not necessarily. With choices from Russia, the Typhoon, and the Gripen, the Rafale is very hard pressed to get any orders.

Its just not feasible to buy them to replace the M2000.

Frankly, France's biggest mistake was shutting down the M2000 line in the first place.

boff180 wrote:

They market Omni-role as they claim it can operate 2-3 missions at the same time by just flicking a switch;

Well, no. "omni-role" really means the aircraft has been designed/optimized for "every role" (no need for dedicated variants). That has nothing to do with the capability to operate several missions at the same time (although the latter explains why a fatally flawed PESA has been selected over a MESA).

skrip00 wrote:

France has sacrificed airframes in order to secure funding for a long and expensive development for a replacement.

No. Not yet.
And anyhow, this development is already going on (DRAAMA - Demonstrateur Radar a Antenne Active, Modes Avances), started in 2004).
Learn your stuff.

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Well, no. "omni-role" really means the aircraft has been designed/optimized for "every role" (no need for dedicated variants). That has nothing to do with the capability to operate several missions at the same time (although the latter explains why a fatally flawed PESA has been selected over a MESA).

Ahem... F-4 Phantom anybody?

No? How about most aircraft flying today.

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No. Not yet.
And anyhow, this development is already going on (DRAAMA - Demonstrateur Radar a Antenne Active, Modes Avances), started in 2004).
Learn your stuff.

It's easy when you use US made components too.

France has been considering reducing airframes to pay for the cost.
"These are being delivered in three separate batches, the most recent being the December 2004 order for 59 Rafales, though the French MoD has revealed that this figure is currently under study and is likely to be reduced to 51 aircraft "for the same overall cost". It was hinted that the sacrifice of 8-12 aircraft would "allow for the introduction of new sensors developed by the French industry on this batch.""
http://www.answers.com/topic/dassault-rafale

France would be wise to transfer Naval Rafales to the Air Force and purchase F-35C's for its Carriers! Doh

skrip00 wrote:

Ahem... F-4 Phantom anybody?

F-4, F-4G, and RF4-E. If I get it right, that makes 3 different versions and not a single variant.

skrip00 wrote:

No? How about most aircraft flying today.

No, and no.
As far as I can tell, no other aircraft is designed to handle all missions.

skrip00 wrote:

It's easy when you use US made components too.

Once again, I have to correct your bogus claim :
"It is worth noting that all components of the DRAAMA antenna will be built in Europe, a key factor for total autonomy and independance."
Source : Rafale Fox 3, issue 7, last page. This is backed-up by a source from DGA.

skrip00 wrote:

France has been considering reducing airframes to pay for the cost.
"These are being delivered in three separate batches, the most recent being the December 2004 order for 59 Rafales, though the French MoD has revealed that this figure is currently under study and is likely to be reduced to 51 aircraft "for the same overall cost". It was hinted that the sacrifice of 8-12 aircraft would "allow for the introduction of new sensors developed by the French industry on this batch.""

It is under study, depending on anticipated export orders. That's what I already said, and that prove you wrong in many ways :
- "France has sacrificed airframes in order to secure funding for a long and expensive development for a replacement." : No, not yet. Development is funded, is progressing well and the demonstrator should be ready in late 2007.
- "Basically, the program is being cut so money will be available." : No one told you it was a program cut.
- "sacrificed overall airframe production to secure funds to develop a new radar." : Neither someone told you it was an overall airframe production reduction.

Once again, the development of the new antenna is already funded (DRAAMA project, launched in 2004). What's at stake here is when to deliver the new antenna. If it's to be delivered early (2008/2009) to accomodate for anticipated export orders, some airframes might be delayed in order to get the funds (there's no budget for that yet). Otherwise, the new antenna should be introduced with the next batch or later (F4 standard not defined yet).
That's what I said, that's what is written, and that's what you fail to understand.

Now it's clear your knowledge level on Rafale program is close to a big fat zero. You'd better not post about it.

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As far as I can tell, no other aircraft is designed to handle all missions.

I point you to the F/A-18.

Recon, Air-to-Air, Air-to-ground, nuke strike, recon, etc. Even though most modern air forces dont need a "recon" role anymore thanks to UAVs.

It's not going to happen, OK?

Not only will France's ego and pride not allow it to happen, canceling Rafale will hurt their military industrial base.

The whole point is a "what if". Of course it isnt going to happen. French flying US built stealth fighters? Hell would freeze over.

Frankly, I was trying to make a point: What if the program slips further down the road of failure? What if needed exports never materialize?

If the French Gov't we're given the option to buy the F-35, would they take it? What will their capabilities be with the F-35 instead of the Rafale? Would they be better off? Or no?

I think France would be doing the smart thing by buying the F-35 but I don't think it should cancel the Rafale. Instead they should keep the Rafale because they invested so much money into plus it would be good for their economy but at the same time they should consider buying the F-35 since it is cheaper then the Rafale plus it would help improve relationships with America.

<<Frankly, France's biggest mistake was shutting down the M2000 line in the first place.>>

No ..It was a very wise decision. There is no future market for this aircraft anymore and no justification from economic point of view to keep the lines open

<<What if..France dumps the Rafale for the F-35?>>

By no stretch of the imagination could this be described as a viable option for France .The most anti-american nation on the planet,decides to by US made fighters.

France had been offered a US fighter before. Namely the F-15 when they needed a high performance twin engine air superiority fighter in the 70's . The M4000 proved to be far too expensive but they declined the offer and they would decline today.

skrip00 wrote:

Extensive delays and extreme cost overruns for the F-35 Lightning II?? Not likely.

The F-35 program began in the year 2000. First flight is in 2006. Service entry 2012.

So far the most costly variant, the F-35B is about $91mil USD. And pound for pound, the cost is well worth it.

Have you just started following the F-35 program yesterday? Just 1,5 year ago the F-35 was expected to enter service in 2008! And at that time the F-35B was estimated at $86mil USD just a few years before that it was even less...

I doubt its well worth it. Because : If you want to bomb baghdad buy a JSF if you want to bomb baghdad defend your airspace effectively knock out enemy ships and SAM sites take one of the other new jets on the market.

I don't know where you get your numbers from, but they are absolute nonsense.

The current unit cost estimates (including R&D amortization over the total expected production run) is $44.8~$48 million for the F-35A depending on whether you want to use LockMart's numbers (in 2004 dollars) or the GAO's numbers (in 2005 dollars). The original estimate when the program was initiated was $28 million in FY1994 dollars. 1994$ != 2004$. PERIOD.

In 2004 dollars the F-35B is now expected to cost $55~$61 million.

IMHO this thread is the dumbest I've seen for a long time.

France has developed and is building Rafale to meet its own needs. Any failure in export markets is totally irrelevant. All that says is that other countries do not have the same requirements as France. France does not need exports in order to afford Rafales. It's future development & production is fully funded.

IOW France is buying what France wants. To suggest they put that aside to wait 10 years to buy F-35's that will not be equipped or qualified to use any French weapons is the height of arrogance. It would be just as arrogant to suggest the USN stop buying F-18's to buy Rafales because Rafale is a newer design.

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

What if... France dumps the Rafale for the F-35?