Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Like an old western shoot out with guns blazing the agile Eurofighter Typhoon meets it's match at Red Flag Alaska 2012. After eight sorties the Eurofighter was at most only able to pull out a draw against the larger, slower Raptor in BFM. The Eurofighter's tactics of getting close and staying close earned as many victories as defects in this guns only showdown. German sources filled with pride at gaining par went on suggest that their fighter might be able to challenge the world's only (in-service) air dominance stealth fighter by stating their Infrared search and track systems would detect the stealthy fighter at around 31 miles. That range is well within the NEZ of an AIM-120C7 launched from a high altitude super-cruising Raptor which has been tracking it's opponent over 100 miles out. So it seems that the Raptor was 'overwhelming' before the merge and appears to have had as much salad to eat as the typhoon boys after the merge.

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Nice story, but can you back it up with any credible sources? I somehow feel like this is yet another made up story.

That story is cool and all sirsink, but like Scorpion82 said we need a link to the actual story before we can accept the story as truth.

Yes, it is made up, but from facts found on-line.

After eight sorties
([Link pending approval])
the Eurofighter was at most only able to pull out a draw 8-4=4
([Link pending approval])
against the larger, slower Raptor in BFM.
([Link pending approval])
The Eurofighter's tactics of getting close and staying close earned as many victories as defects
([Link pending approval])
in this guns only showdown.
([Link pending approval]
German sources filled with pride at gaining par went on suggest that their fighter might be able to challenge the world's only (in-service) air dominance stealth fighter by stating their Infrared search and track systems would detect the stealthy fighter at around 31 miles. 50km =31miles
([Link pending approval])
That range is well within the NEZ of an AIM-120C7 launched from a high altitude super-cruising Raptor which has been tracking it's opponent over 100 miles out.
([Link pending approval])
So it seems that the Raptor was 'overwhelming' before the merge and appears to have had as much salad to eat as the typhoon boys after the merge. (info gained from the above sites)

If it's on the internet ... It MUST be true! Craig Ferguson

OK cool! Thanks!

sirsink167sig wrote:

Yes, it is made up, but from facts found on-line.

"Facts" is a relative term considering that you post all kind of links without weighing between how reliable the sources are. You even include forum discussions and entries from the comment section of a blog as "source" and call these facts. The funnier is your last sentence that "everything on the internet MUST be true".

The PIRATE story for instance isn't completely moot only in this case, it's absolute nonesense and the AIM-120C7 story isn't that much better. Both come from the comment section of the blog and can hardly be considered as sources let alone facts.

The benefits of IRST/EOTS/EODAS against a stealth opponent is old news. Pilots who rely on radar shoot cues have problems even when the F-22 is right in front of them. An AIM-9 (or AA-11 Archer for that matter) can target a F-22 if the pilot manually lines up the target for a shoot cue. If the jet has manual missile targeting capability, it can take out the F-22 in WVR. This is true for an upgraded MiG-21 (especially with HMCS), or small and tight maneuvering F-5, so the Eurofighter isn't some magic jet that has a unique ability to take out a F-22.

In BVR combat, the F-22 has the capability to control the engagement against any other jet flying and fire an AIM-120 before the other jet has a clue they are even in the area. Using the Eurofighter EOTS to detect the F-22 in medium range BVR, still wont allow a Meteor AAM to get a clean shot on the F-22, and would probably get an AIM-120 fired at it in response.

neurotech wrote:

Pilots who rely on radar shoot cues have problems even when the F-22 is right in front of them. An AIM-9 (or AA-11 Archer for that matter) can target a F-22 if the pilot manually lines up the target for a shoot cue.

Especially if the opponent is directly in front of the F-22A. That is where the F-22's RCS is at its lowest point. But at that point and time, they would be well within their missiles' range but, they still have not detected the F-22.

neurotech wrote:

this is true for an upgraded MiG-21 (especially with HMCS), or small and tight maneuvering F-5, so the Eurofighter isn't some magic jet that has a unique ability to take out a F-22.

When you see the pictures of the F-5 in a gun shot on a F-22, I always asked, "what were the ROEs?" In one photo with an F-5 in a gun shot on the F-22A, the F-5 is a little high on the F-22s tail. Reading the HUD... the air speed is below 500mph, an altitude of ?15,500ft. all while pulling only 5½Gs! AGAIN... what are the ROEs?? All this going on while weather is good. When the weather is bad, heavy clouds the F-22's opponents will have a more difficult time.

neurotech wrote:

Using the Eurofighter EOTS to detect the F-22 in medium range BVR, still wont allow a Meteor AAM to get a clean shot on the F-22, and would probably get an AIM-120 fired at it in response.

The EOTs of the Euro-fighter's can detect the F-22 at a little over 30 miles, radar detection is less. The opponents have trouble detecting the F-22, all the while they are being fired upon by F-22s. The F-22A can work with a wingman, where the F-22 or decoy to the opponent is allowed to be detected, it is not the F-22 which has already fired on the opponent!

neurotech wrote:

Using the Eurofighter EOTS to detect the F-22 in medium range BVR, still wont allow a Meteor AAM to get a clean shot on the F-22

Detecting an F-22 with an EOTS somewhere around thirty miles and launching a missile doesn't mean the the seeker of the missile can detect the F-22. I read once the Agat seeker of the Adder missile, the R-77AE or AA-12 has to close to within 2Km of a F-22 in order for the seeker to detect the F-22!

I'm pretty sure the Typhoon and Raptor pilots would laugh at the fanboyishness of everyone's response to the exercise. Red Flag is not a pi$$ing contest, it's meant to provide TRAINING. The Eurofighter pilots need WVR training against a no-$hit TVC fighter like the new Flankers coming out, and the F-22 pilots need to see how WVR goes against the most advanced, HMCS-equipped 4.5 gen aircraft out there. Everybody learns something, everybody wins. If the F-22 had won every engagement, the whole thing would have been pointless.

Well said 1st503rdsgt!!

Can't argue with that.

Wait, the Typhoons that faced the F-22's had HMCS? Source?

disconnectedradical wrote:

Wait, the Typhoons that faced the F-22's had HMCS? Source?

A generic term admittedly, but if you must be so pedantic, I'll spoon-feed it to you... http://www.eurofighter.com/media/press- ... elmet.html

Here's the latest version. http://www.eurofighter.com/capabilities ... ystem.html and a video to go with it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw85PoAgUsU

Seems just about everything except the F-22 has a helmet mounted sight of some kind these days.

1st503rdsgt wrote:

disconnectedradical wrote:

Wait, the Typhoons that faced the F-22's had HMCS? Source?

A generic term admittedly, but if you must be so pedantic, I'll spoon-feed it to you... http://www.eurofighter.com/media/press- ... elmet.html

Here's the latest version. http://www.eurofighter.com/capabilities ... ystem.html and a video to go with it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw85PoAgUsU

Seems just about everything except the F-22 has a helmet mounted sight of some kind these days.

Well, the point of the question is whether the Typhoons that faced the F-22's in the Red Flag exercises used the HMCS. Do the Typhoons in JG 74 have that system?

disconnectedradical wrote:

1st503rdsgt wrote:

disconnectedradical wrote:

Wait, the Typhoons that faced the F-22's had HMCS? Source?

A generic term admittedly, but if you must be so pedantic, I'll spoon-feed it to you... http://www.eurofighter.com/media/press- ... elmet.html

Here's the latest version. http://www.eurofighter.com/capabilities ... ystem.html and a video to go with it http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vw85PoAgUsU

Seems just about everything except the F-22 has a helmet mounted sight of some kind these days.

Well, the point of the question is whether the Typhoons that faced the F-22's in the Red Flag exercises used the HMCS. Do the Typhoons in JG 74 have that system?

Actually, I'm starting to think that trolling was the point of your question for some reason, especially since there's absolutely no reason for a fighter pilot to train without the most basic subsystems his aircraft was designed to use. What the hell else do you want? A copy of everyone's weight and balance charts?

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

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