Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

em745 wrote:

Let's see how much of an "animal" the Tiffy is with 8 missiles and 3x 1,000 L tanks. The F-22 will still be "slicked off" in combat garb.

I don't think that any aircraft of that kind would enter a gun fight with its drop tanks and missiles being kept. In real combat the pilot would first try to bring his SRAAMs to bear, before switching to guns, which is at best a last resort.

Quote:

Really?

Dozer's takeoff story from a few years back (was posted on Fencecheck) let it slip that a combat-loaded F-22 can achieve ~61.5k ft./min. vertical (or Mach 0.99) after takeoff. Is this guy implying that a Tiffy (loaded as above) can break the sound barrier under similar circumstances? Somehow I find that extraordinarily hard to believe... Or are we still talking "slicked off as much as possible" here? Rolling Eyes

Apparently they commented on the DACTs as they were flown (i.e. clean Typhoons). This is made clear in the article so why the questions?

@shingen

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The Rafale vs F-22 was more interesting because the F-22 should utterly dominate but allegedly didn't, but then in reality did (maybe) even though it had enormous tanks on but the French claimed victory because the F-22 couldn't hold a gun track (supposedly).

The French didn't claim "victory", but pointed out that there was no clear defeat or utter dominance demonstrated by the F-22 in THAT AREA. The Typhoon jocks insists something similar, though they obviously had a fair share of the simulated gun kills, unlike the Rafales which managed a number of draws with one or two looses depending on whom you want to believe.

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even without Typhoon or Rafale ,Raptor pilots are lucky to be alive ..LOL
Its impossible to understand that Lockeed can't ascertain a simple problem and devise a solution !

duplex wrote:

http://www.defense-aerospace.com/article-view/release/136557/more-f_22-oxygen-problems%3B-no-fix-in-sight.html

even without Typhoon or Rafale ,Raptor pilots are lucky to be alive ..LOL
Its impossible to understand that Lockeed can't ascertain a simple problem and devise a solution !

If he was experiencing breathing issues during the flight,,why wait till after landing to,use the emergency O2 supply?

Here's some more > http://pdf-giant.com/aviation_space/8321-combat-aircraft-monthly-august-2012-uk.html

My understanding is that most F-22 "kills" and gun camera pics are the result of breaking the rules of engagement by the "killer" while the F-22 pilot follows the rules due to the need to keep the rare bird safe and not stupidly risk lives and aircraft. I have heard this is the case in most, if not all, USN raptor "kills." I would guess the Typhoon is similar.

Additionally on the whole Hypoxia thing, if it is such a simple problem please, enlighten us as to what the problem is (and I mean root cause) and how to fix it. It will likely end up being something fairly easy to fix, but the problem is figuring out what it is. My personally theory is that the F-22's fly higher and faster than any other fighter today, it's cieling is close the the U-2, which requires a space suit to fly. I wonder if the OBOGS isn't working too well, and is actually scrubing out some of the oxygen, which affects it more at higher alt.

Sufa Viper

sufaviper wrote:

My understanding is that most F-22 "kills" and gun camera pics are the result of breaking the rules of engagement by the "killer" while the F-22 pilot follows the rules due to the need to keep the rare bird safe and not stupidly risk lives and aircraft. I have heard this is the case in most, if not all, USN raptor "kills." I would guess the Typhoon is similar.

So a single Super Hornet jock breaking the rules (according the Raptor guy) = most "kills"? For sure everyone is playing unfair and breaking the rules, just the brave and honest F-22 jocks don't do it. Rolling Eyes

Also seems like they always have a different recollection of events when it's not said that they were utterly superior.

These kind of exercises might be interesting but I still remain dubious on their actual applicability to what the F-22 would be asked to do in the future. In a high threat air to air environment the F-22 would fire 4 or 6 AMRAAM's from well within no-escape range (something it can pretty easily get into against all other fighters in the air today without being seen) and it would get the hell out of dodge to get more missiles. This would be repeated until everything it needed to shoot at was dead.

The F-22 in a merge against a slicked down 4th generation is not really likely to happen under any circumstance. It is just not worth it and unless the F-22's screwed up badly there is really very little way for a 4th generation aircraft to initiate that merge of its own accord. It makes for interesting thought exercises I suppose.

The issue is a breakdown in the system.

The system is using a network to set up shooters who can't be counterattacked.

In the past it was kinematics or maneuvers to set that up. Now, the only way for that to happen is VLO. EF tries to do the same thing with kinematics vs the T-10 series which is why they are going for the Meteor and the US isn't.

If the kinematics approach pushed by EF fanboys was so great the Russians would have pursued the MiG 1.42. They dropped it for the T-50, which, if the RCS figure of .2m^2 is correct is a mistake of laughable proportions. At that figure they should have admitted defeat in the air and just gone with the 1.42 and said "At least we can beat Typhoon and Rafale (maybe)."

All of the vs garbage you can read on boards is about anti-VLO fanboys positing a situation in which the system has broken down. Or they just reject that the system is what it is.

The fact that AMRAAM has HOBS capability and a minimum range of something like 2nm is totally left out of the discussion because it ends the discussion. When the system breaks down for an F-35 it's whoever is faster on the draw, when the system breaks down for the F-22 it's still higher and faster than anything out there except the EF.

So, the system will break down some of the time, resulting in US equipment being on terms of some superiority or equality. If the system works it's 100-1. Testing against EF is the hardest test they can put the F-22 through so it's a good idea.

What about the hypothesis that a slicked down EF is about the same kinematics and RCS of a T-50? I've seen .1m^2 X band frontal for a clean EF. If that's correct it probably simulates a T-50 very well.

bigjku,
F22 pilot isn't always tasked with OCA where he can impose his fighting tempo, but DCA as well, where the tempo is imposed by the protected target (tanker, AWACS, etc.), like on RF-A 12-2 (day 2), when "Blue" lost 2 F22s, probably to leakers that made to the merge.
Then, you need to figure how close can a modern ASPJ bring a .1m2 RCS aircraft to F22, until APG77 burns through jamming screen and the higher the offboresight angle, the later will the fixed AESA manage to do that.
Historically, ASPJs killed off ~2/3 radar's range, which translated into today's scale, could bring F22 well within target's IRST or even radar range (depends on radar and aspect) and F22 pilot could perhaps require some jamming himself.
Also, against such modern ASPJs, radar missiles have questionable effect, particularly if jammers are multi-channel AESA systems, which jam several missiles simultaneously, per channel.
(http://theboresight.blogspot.com/2009/07/swirl-of-controversy-cope-india-and-red.html#!/2009/07/swirl-of-controversy-cope-india-and-red.html)
Finally, staying low on emissions once the missiles are on the way may not work, since missiles need a strong signal for mid-course guidance update, which is usually easy to intercept.

Now, in reality the problem is much more complex (engagement tactics vs. target's aspect f.e.) and very real.
Hope this helps...

Scorpion82 wrote:

sufaviper wrote:

My understanding is that most F-22 "kills" and gun camera pics are the result of breaking the rules of engagement by the "killer" while the F-22 pilot follows the rules due to the need to keep the rare bird safe and not stupidly risk lives and aircraft. I have heard this is the case in most, if not all, USN raptor "kills." I would guess the Typhoon is similar.

So a single Super Hornet jock breaking the rules (according the Raptor guy) = most "kills"? For sure everyone is playing unfair and breaking the rules, just the brave and honest F-22 jocks don't do it. Rolling Eyes

Also seems like they always have a different recollection of events when it's not said that they were utterly superior.

By the same token it's funny how the guys flying the other jets always try to imply that they gave the Raptor a challenge. Obviously, most jocks are going to talk up their particular platform to their media.

sufaviper wrote:

My understanding is that most F-22 "kills" and gun camera pics are the result of breaking the rules of engagement by the "killer" while the F-22 pilot follows the rules due to the need to keep the rare bird safe and not stupidly risk lives and aircraft. I have heard this is the case in most, if not all, USN raptor "kills." I would guess the Typhoon is similar.

Additionally on the whole Hypoxia thing, if it is such a simple problem please, enlighten us as to what the problem is (and I mean root cause) and how to fix it. It will likely end up being something fairly easy to fix, but the problem is figuring out what it is. My personally theory is that the F-22's fly higher and faster than any other fighter today, it's cieling is close the the U-2, which requires a space suit to fly. I wonder if the OBOGS isn't working too well, and is actually scrubing out some of the oxygen, which affects it more at higher alt.

Sufa Viper

There was one pic a Rafale fan boy was showing me of a Rafale targeting a Raptor. Of course, what's funny is that the article that pic was from basically said that the Raptor wiped the floor with the Rafale. The pic showed the Raptor flying at extremely low altitude and chances are, it was simply returning to base.

@icemaverick
Well in this case American and British journalists attended a briefing at Eilson AB and reported what the pilots have told them. All pilots were named, only the American counter claims were made by unnamed sources which didn't oppose the admiration of the Typhoon jocks for the F-22s BVR capabilities, but of course denied that they were beaten in WVR.

And that Rafale story is somewhat misrepresented by you as well, but that's yet another subject.

Scorpion82 wrote:

only the American counter claims were made by unnamed sources

Got that from your Starstreak bud Jon-Jon, did you?

That's rich, coming from a guy who had no problem at all citing "unnamed sources" for his IAPR (China Lake) story a few years back.

em745 wrote:

Scorpion82 wrote:

only the American counter claims were made by unnamed sources

Got that from your Starstreak bud Jon-Jon, did you?

That's rich, coming from a guy who had no problem at all citing "unnamed sources" for his IAPR (China Lake) story a few years back.

You just need to read the related articles... The rest is irrelevant as far as I'm concerned.

icemaverick wrote:

There was one pic a Rafale fan boy was showing me of a Rafale targeting a Raptor. Of course, what's funny is that the article that pic was from basically said that the Raptor wiped the floor with the Rafale. The pic showed the Raptor flying at extremely low altitude and chances are, it was simply returning to base.

Care to elaborate? From what I can gather from the photos themselves the F-22 doesn't appear to be at any shockingly low altitude, and the speeds aren't consistent with an approach.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

F-22A versus EF2000