Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

In any case, I recall reading somewhere that they weren't able to incorporate as much composites into the production F-22 as they would've liked (mainly due to ballistic impact shortcomings IIRC).

On a side note, I find that the much heavier F-22 has a higher supercruising speed of Mach 1.8 compared to the YF-22's Mach 1.6 to be pretty astounding.

I do think that the F-22's increased weight somewhat hinders its supercruising potential. For a given LD coefficient, more weight means more drag.

@Raptor_Claw: Do you actually fly F-22s?

The F/A-18E/F can side-slip or roll at high AoA, and maintains good rudder control and yaw/roll stability as well. This can be done without loosing altitude. To stay within WEZ, these type maneuvers can be performed during a knife fight with a F/A-18E/F, but not older jets like the F/A-18C/D

The F/A-18A/B/C/D did not have an AoA limiter, because the jet wouldn't go over 30 AoA. It did have a FCS G-limiter to avoid over-G conditions. The F-16 has an AoA limit of 25, for aerodynamic reasons (deep stall/departure), and a G-Limit for structural reasons, they are not the same function in FCS.

NT: Just to redress some claims that you are making here and have previously made about the Classic Hornet in other areas of the forum. The classic can and does roll/sideslip and yaw at high AOA and can perform a piroutte. The Classic also can and does easilly and routinely exceed 30alpha.

Evidence is here (slide26/29): http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/aeronautics-and-astronautics/16-885j-aircraft-systems-engineering-fall-2004/lecture-notes/sohl_mit_brief.pdf

Carry on....

The heritage Hornet has no AOA limiter, but does have aft center of gravity (cg) limitations to preclude AOA hang-up (defined by weak nose down control power with full forward control stick, which delays recovery to lower AOAs and results in severe altitude loss) and has very little roll capability in the high AOA region.

NASA reported that in one phase of the project, Dryden Flight Research Center "research pilots Bill Dana and Ed Schneider completed the envelope expansion flights in February 1992. Demonstrated capabilities included stable flight at approximately 70 degrees angle of attack (previous maximum was 55 degrees) and rolling at high rates at 65 degrees angle of attack. Controlled rolling would have been nearly impossible above 35 degrees without vectoring"

I think that you need to refer to Classic Hornet NATOPS again. Its in the limits section 4.1.6

In the FE (Fighter Escort) Config with CG from 17-25% MAC the limit is Unrestricted, and the classic hornet has the pitch authority to get there.

Let me help you...

CONFIGURATION CG (% MAC) AOA LIMIT (°)
FE with or without Air-to-Air
stores:
a) with or without external fuel
tanks in any combination on
stations 3, 5, and 7;
b) with any stores on station 5
17% to 25% Unrestricted
>25% to 28% -6° to +25°

WRT the HARV stuff, I dont know anything about that, but all of that research was done and dusted well prior to the Hornet FCS Software project I outlined earlier. It also doesn't have a whole lot of applicability to your stock standard classic hornet.

http://www.boeing.com/news/releases/2003/q2/nr_030617m.html This is the Boeing press release stating said software upgrade (in the ppt that I provided in my first post) has been rolled out to the USN and Foreign customers.

You can believe me, or not. Doesn't bother me.

From 25 to 35° AOA, roll performance gradually decreases with increasing AOA. Above 25° AOA, pedal and lateral stick inputs provide similar responses. Above 35° AOA and at low airspeed the roll performance is essentially constant. If the AOA is over 35°, the yaw rate warning tone is replaced by the departure warning tone and yaw rate warning is not available. From 35 to 55° AOA, combined lateral stick and pedal inputs produce enhanced roll performance compared to individual control inputs. AOA excursions into the 60s are possible with this input, ...... Full aft stick results in maximum sustained AOAs between 50 and 55°.

"Enhanced departure resistance allows the pilot to safely command yaw rates up to the yaw rate tone (40°/sec). Above 25°AOA, lateral stick or rudder command the same, well controlled, aircraft rolling response. If opposite stick and pedal are commanded the inputs will essentially cancel each other out and little to no roll response will result.

The FCS incorporates pirouette logic to produce abrupt heading reversals at high AOA (>25°) and low airspeed (<210 KCAS). Pirouette logic can be engaged above 25° AOA and below 210 KCAS by applying full lateral stick and pedal in the same direction. When the criteria are met, the FCS
recognizes the pilot’s desire to rapidly reverse aircraft heading and displaces control surfaces appropriately, resulting in a well controlled maneuver. Spin display logic is modified during a commanded pirouette to prevent nuisance spin indications. Aircraft motion can be stopped at the
desired heading by applying full lateral stick and pedal in the direction opposite that which initiated the maneuver."

From some of your posts it sounds like you work in the Navy or USMC and are connected to aviation. Maybe you could go ask a classic driver (or Super Driver regarding a classic) what AOA they can pull, how easy they can do it, and if a classic can pirouette.

It doesn't surprise me given the ROE's that Typhoon may have scored some kills. What does surprise me is the bravado displayed by the German pilots given those ROE's, then admitting to the fact that you can't get close to the Raptor. Unlike previous fighters, the Raptor can engage/disengage at will.

When you have that luxury (and purported EW capabilities that may go well beyond that), it's a game changer. If I were those German pilots, I wouldn't be painting any Raptor kills on my plane, nor talking about them. I'd just be glad they're on the same side..

It's all about marketing my friend.....