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Elite 3K Joined: May 11, 2004 Posts: 3035 Status: Offline

Ah - now I get it Idea

! The hangar is a certain size so the jet has to fit in it - but the hangar was designed back in the 50s - thanks for the clarification Very Happy

!

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Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1012 Status: Offline

parrothead wrote:

I don't know about the Tomcat, but I know that the Blackbird tooling was destroyed - what a FOXTROTTING shame!

As I recall the tooling for the Tomcat was destroyed too and it was ordered by Cheney when he was Sec Defense. If nothing else that was the nail in the coffin of any future Tomcats after that. Was in 90-91 or there abouts.

Elite 3K Joined: May 10, 2004 Posts: 3035 Status: Offline

Sferrin,

Thanks for the clarification. Still one of the dumbest moves in history. Stick it in a warehouse somewhere, ship it out to AMARC or Groom Lake - I don't care but don't foxtrotting destroy it Mad

!!!

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1090

parrothead wrote:

Sferrin,

Thanks for the clarification. Still one of the dumbest moves in history. Stick it in a warehouse somewhere, ship it out to AMARC or Groom Lake - I don't care but don't foxtrotting destroy it Mad

!!!

If there is no forseeable need for a piece of military hardware in the future and no potential buyers of such second hand hardware, it's best just to sell the raw materials (i.e. scrap metal) after demolition. Building new F-14D airframes after the end of the Cold War would be about as smart as building new F-15C airframes. The only country we ever exported the F-14 to was Iran and look how that turned out. The F-14 is not the kind of fighter you want to export to a country that could afford it and make effective use of it. We really screwed up by selling them to the Shah of Iran. Today that would be like selling F-22s to some rich nation in the Middle East. After the Tomcat 21 program was cancelled (and well it should have been), there was no chance of an F-14 airframe being built again.

You don't keep tooling around for a potent weapon that you have no plans to use again. It's simply a waste of money and space. You don't keep military hardware around for nostalgia purposes unless it's truly museum worthy. Tooling for the F-14 is not something you would put up in a museum. There are plenty of F-14s in air museums though. I took my yearbook photo next to an F-14A at the Intrepid Air & Space Museum in NYC. The planes are cool, the tooling is not. The reason why there's so much bad blood about the loss of the F-14 is due to the lack of a true successor. Assuming we had enough F-22s to completely replace our fleet of F-15Cs, there would be no bad feelings in doing so. If we didn't have any true 5th generation air superiority fighter coming into service for the USAF, but instead had plans to replace all our F-15Cs with Block 60 F-16s, there might be some controversy.

I really don't know why there aren't plans for the Navy to get a 5th generation air superiority fighter akin to the F-22, but there just aren't. I don't know the politics or economics behind this decision... I really don't. One thing is fore sure though. Until the Navy gets something like those fighters from the movie Stealth, they're out of the air superiority/dominance role. This is what makes people so upset. They misplace their anger though. They get mad that more F-14s weren't built and that existing airframes have now been retired. What people are really ticked off at is that the Navy no longer has parity with the Air Force in terms of the air superiority role. The F-14 would give the F-15 a serious run for its money, but now there is nothing in the Navy's air arsenal to compare to the USAF's mighty F-22.

There are no amount of F-14s that you could keep around (or build more of) to keep the Navy on par with the Air Force now that the F-22 is in service. It's no longer F-15 vs. F-14. It's F-22 vs. F/A-18E! The F-35C won't do anything for the Navy's ego either since the Air Force will have comparable F-35As. So yes... who wouldn't be depressed that all the Navy has to throw up against the F-22 is the F/A-18E. There's no contest there. Nobody is going to make a movie like Top Gun staring the Super Hornet. They'll make one staring the Raptor though. Very Happy

It's sad, but true. I have nothing against the Navy and hope it'll get its next true air superiority platform soon (like in the next 10 years). With nothing but the JSF on the [public] drawing board though, it's hard to imagine a return to the good old days of Tomcats and Top Gun.

Elite 3K Joined: May 10, 2004 Posts: 3035 Status: Offline

Raptor1,

Thanks for the reply Very Happy

!

I understand where you're coming from - but I'm all about contingencies. The Tomcat would've still been great if they could've given it the AMRAAM capability like they were supposed to. Without the AMRAAM or the retired Phoenix, the Tomcat was stuck with Sparrows, Sidewinders, and the gun - no chance.

Give the 'Cat some teeth and claws and it still kicks @$$ - as you say it is a potent weapon which has no successor. Keep 'em around and keep the options open is my point Wink

.

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1090

Parrothead,

You couldn't just keep the old Tomcats around. I'm sure you've heard this before, but they were a maintenance nightmare. They were costing too much money to keep around. I'm not exactly sure why the Tomcat 21 was cancelled, but perhaps it was seen as a very expensive upgrade that would rule out any hope of a true 5th generation Navy fighter/interceptor until 6th generation fighters were coming along. Hehehe. I really don't know the story behind it, but what I do know is that the Navy doesn't have a 5th generation air dominance aircraft akin to the F-22, and there don't seem to be any plans for one anytime soon. I think we (i.e. the American public at large) tend to underestimate the rate at which other potentially hostile countries can advance their military hardware and capabilities. An upgraded Tomcat would be like an upgraded F-15 (the F-15 Active or perhaps even less capable). That's just not going to last you well into the 21st century.

A question to all: When do you think the Navy get the equivalent of the USAF's F-22? Is there anything even in the works for something like this? Of course I'm talking about something publically acknowledged and not just rumor.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1012 Status: Offline

Raptor_One wrote:

Parrothead,

You couldn't just keep the old Tomcats around. I'm sure you've heard this before, but they were a maintenance nightmare. They were costing too much money to keep around. I'm not exactly sure why the Tomcat 21 was cancelled, but perhaps it was seen as a very expensive upgrade that would rule out any hope of a true 5th generation Navy fighter/interceptor until 6th generation fighters were coming along. Hehehe. I really don't know the story behind it, but what I do know is that the Navy doesn't have a 5th generation air dominance aircraft akin to the F-22, and there don't seem to be any plans for one anytime soon. I think we (i.e. the American public at large) tend to underestimate the rate at which other potentially hostile countries can advance their military hardware and capabilities. An upgraded Tomcat would be like an upgraded F-15 (the F-15 Active or perhaps even less capable). That's just not going to last you well into the 21st century.

A question to all: When do you think the Navy get the equivalent of the USAF's F-22? Is there anything even in the works for something like this? Of course I'm talking about something publically acknowledged and not just rumor.

NATF was suppose to be it. One of the reasons the YF-22 was chosen over the YF-23 is that the naval version was apparently further along in the design process. So they chose the YF-22- and then cancelled the NATF. There will be no naval F-22 equivalent for the next 20-30 years because of cost. The best they could hope for would be some souped up version of the F-35 but even that wouldn't cut it because neither the airframe or engine is designed for sustained supersonic flight or high AOA like the F-22. The Navy pretty much did it to themselves. By producing the "interim fighter" ie Super Hornet it made it too damn convenient for the politicians to say "you have this shiny new fighter why do you need an F-22?" On the other hand if they hadn't the added cost of NATF to the F-22 program would have made unit cost higher than it is right now and congress would have probably had a heart attack and cancelled the whole ATF/NATF program out right.

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1090

Maybe the Navy should invest in a few of their own strategic airbases, a few squadrons of F-22s, and perform their own air dominance when absolutely necessary. Or perhaps they could just rent out some F-22s when necessary? Hmmmm.... Very Happy

Or just rely on the USAF... they both are on the same team...

NATF would've been awesome to see.

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1090

skrip00 wrote:

Or just rely on the USAF... they both are on the same team...

NATF would've been awesome to see.

The rivalry between the Navy and Air Force has always been intense. Forget this same teams nonsense. Very Happy

Perhaps if a real shooting war broke out they'd join forces. Laughing

Just kidding of course.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1012 Status: Offline

skrip00 wrote:

Or just rely on the USAF... they both are on the same team...

NATF would've been awesome to see.

Much like this:

Elite 3K Joined: May 10, 2004 Posts: 3035 Status: Offline

Yeah, I know the Tomcat was a maintenance pig, but it was and is faster than everything else on the boat, better radar, etc. Still sad to see the Navy go down the crapper Sad

.

I sure would've liked to have seen the NATF Very Happy

! Even if the costs were higher, the units produced would've been higher - might have brought the per unit cost down.

Oh well, at least I know where I can go to visit a couple of Tomcats - USS Midway in San Diego and the March Field Air museum at March ARB.

I'll miss 'em...

F/A-18E/F is good enough for me. If current NAVAIR pilots love them, then they must be worth it.

Elite 3K Joined: May 10, 2004 Posts: 3035 Status: Offline

skrip00 wrote:

F/A-18E/F is good enough for me. If current NAVAIR pilots love them, then they must be worth it.

Please understand that there is no offense meant by this, but it seems to me that that might be a case similar to the situation where I really loved my IROC-Z Camaro because there was no way I could get a Corvette Wink

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Elite 1K Joined: Jul 22, 2005 Posts: 1012 Status: Offline

skrip00 wrote:

F/A-18E/F is good enough for me. If current NAVAIR pilots love them, then they must be worth it.

That's the kind of thing I tell myself when I'm driving my Eclipse and see a Ferrari drive by Twisted Evil

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