Can someone explain to me: Source Code

Design and construction
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by skrip00 » 04 Aug 2006, 16:55

1. What is ITARS?
2. Why does a user nation need source code?
3. What are security risks? I mean, if China got their hands on the code, what would happen?

Basically. This seems to be a major issue in the F-35's export program, since many nations want this source code. And I'm kinda lost in the politics and techno-garbage of it all.

Can someone explain it to me?

Also, when the F-16 was released for export, did it have a similar problem like this? Where the US chose not to reveal certain technological aspects?


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by parrothead » 04 Aug 2006, 17:29

skrip00,

I don't know just what ITARS is, but I think I can shed some light on the situation :wink: .

Access to the source code lets you make changes to the software that runs the jet. If you want the jet's computers to talk to a brand new type of missile, you have to tell it how to by modifying the software - changing what's in the computer code. If you don't have the source code, you're stuck with the manufacturer defaults :) .

The F-15 and F-16 source code was held secret from most if not all end users until quite a ways into the production run and deployment.

If China got their hands on the source code, it would probably give them some good ideas on how to improve the software in their jets - not good for the U.S. military :wink: .
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by Smithsguy » 04 Aug 2006, 17:59

FYI, ITAR: International Traffic in Arms Regulations

Weapon-wise, you'd want source code access to add the applicable control messages for said weapon (if they differed from say 1760 standard msgs) or for additional signals needed, etc.

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by skrip00 » 04 Aug 2006, 18:01

So this has happened before then? With the F-15 and F-16?

Then why are end-users making a fuss about it now? It seems to me, the only nation which has a legitimate beef is the UK which is the only level 1 partner.


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by parrothead » 04 Aug 2006, 18:17

Yep, it happened before. The reason everyone is making a fuss is that if they don't have the source code, they have to get the jet to the U.S. to have it adapted to their particular weapons - which also means we learn everything about those weapons as well :wink: .
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by skrip00 » 04 Aug 2006, 18:49

Ahhh...

Well, if they want it, maybe they should try to contribute to more than 10% of the development costs...


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by seat_dreamer » 04 Aug 2006, 19:34

They do, they buy nearly half the production line and help keep the costs down for everybody.
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by RonO » 04 Aug 2006, 19:38

There's millions of lines of code involved here. The question is how much of that does the UK need in order to meet it's objectives of operational independence. I do not think there was any expectation on the UK's part they would get 100%. Other Uk purchases like ASTOR, for example, does not include UK access to all source.

As of now, there is agreement in principle between the US & UK on what the F-35 areas would be. The details of actually which bits are released are being worked in light of the principles. The expection (hope) is that it will all be wrapped up by Dec when the UK signs up for its F-35 purchases.

BTW there's a lot of real sensitive stuff in this code, like how the F-35 recognises and handles hostile radar emissions. Dynamite in the wrong hands.

Also, it's not just the source code that the UK wants (needs). There's other stuff.


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by RonO » 04 Aug 2006, 19:57

ITAR is a set of rules or regulations to be followed once the decision is taken to release classified information to another country.

There is an awful lot of BS written about ITAR. The rules and regulations are a total pain in the asss to follow and permissions take for ever to come through. So the UK was hoping they would get a blanket exemption from having to follow them. Unfortunately, this was not granted because of concerns that UK law was not robust enough to prevent classified stuff leaking out to the bad guys. So the UK is stuck following them.

Unprincipled critics of the UK F-35 purchase either state or imply that the refusal on ITAR exemption translates to a refusal to supply F-35 information to the UK. It categorically does not. Every request for classified F-35 info to date has been approved thru ITAR. Nothing has been refused.

The problem is that the theory behind ITAR is you don't ask to export info until you are ready to do so. You can't call ahead so to speak. That's why the UK got nervous & Drayson went to the US and asked that approval be approved up front for all of F-35 so that the UK wouldn't have to worry about future refusals i.e a guarantee that all future requests would be approved. Bush said the US would do that and as I said earlier, the details are being negotiated right now.

So bottom line, if you read anywhere that the US is ripping off the UK by refusing to supply F-35 secrets because of ITAR, and I have read that in several UK magazines, you should know that is an absolute lie being put around by enemies of the F-35 program.


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by skrip00 » 04 Aug 2006, 20:28

So basically... the UK jumped the gun in its requests, and was denied until a later date?


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by Ayubi » 04 Aug 2006, 23:11

Now i am no computar expert so i have a question.

Can't a country write their own codes? Meaning that can't the UK write it's own codoes for the JSF?


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by toan » 05 Aug 2006, 03:51

USA won't allow other countries to do this with the possible exception of its most intimate and reliable friends such as UK. Once the foreign countries get or re-write the source code of F-35, they will be able to incorporate any fighter's weapons they want into the F-35 without the permission of USA, and what will happen if some of them just decide to equip their F-35s with the domestic NBC bombs and/or cruise missiles???
Last edited by toan on 05 Aug 2006, 04:09, edited 1 time in total.


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by LordOfBunnies » 05 Aug 2006, 04:06

Ayubi, a country can write their own source code, but the thing is 5 million lines of code and you aren't the ones who built is so you don't understand everything that goes within it. It's ill advised to try because if you screw up, you just ruined a $XX million jet that you already had the source code for. There are so many unknowns that you may or may not be able to account for, leaving the sleeping lion lie. Actually, it's probably built into the onboard computers so you'd have to do those all over again as well as well as rerouting the coolant (fuel) lines.
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by Ayubi » 05 Aug 2006, 04:16

Thanks LOB. But if you have the ability, or if you to reverse engienner a plane(the chinese reverse engienner alot of planes then how do they write the code? Just asking since iam a newbie and would like to know more about this source code things.


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by skrip00 » 05 Aug 2006, 04:19

Its insanely difficult. In order to write your own source code, you pretty much need to have designed the plane from the ground up. Flight testing, aerodynamics, radar-testing, radar modes, signal analysis algorithms, etc.

Just like how many of our allies who operate older US exports like the F-15 and F-16, they will never be allowed full access to all the systems designs and codes.

It also gives the USA oversight over what gets messed with on the F-35.


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