Forum: F-16 News

Its nice to see all of these countries flying these new hot jets while the USAF/ANG is trying to get by with block 25's with 6000 hours. Confused

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You speak as if you're an insider strongman Very Happy

Anyway, It'd be useful to have that much Vipers in TuAF but dont you think that it would create too much dependency on one particular model? We still do not have full permit to source codes. OTOH, we manufacture the structural elements but what about the avionics? Do we have enough knowledge on that? Most avionics came ready, we just assembled. Unit prices and performance are the two sides but not the only ones. It's high time to think about the development and production of crucial cockpit elements and know-how transfer. What I beleive is, Eurofighter Consortium offers more on this specific issue than Lockheed Martin.

OTTO,

I'm curious. What threat do your people have that requires a machine like the 52+ ? Same with Oman and the block 60. The US is fighting 2 wars and there are other conflicts on the horizon most likely, plus noble eagle and we fly lesser jets.

I respect your Gov't for providing you the best there is.

strongman wrote:

In my opinion, no more F-4E upgrades should be made. I do not find it wise. Instead of giving that much money to those grandfathers' time aircraft, attrition losses plus a few more F-16 aircraft may be purchased.

Traditionally TuAF used to fly with a single engine, light fighter aircraft supporting twin engine fighter-bombers, such as F-104 and F-4E in the past and F-16C and F-4E recently. Now that the F-4E aircraft are retiring, one would think to replace them with a new twin engine fighter bomber. In the 1990's we were expecting the Peace Onyx II would be 160 Block50 F-16C aircraft rather than 80 that had actually been purchased. Also the F-4E fleet would be modernised with F-15E Strike Eagles. But that has never happened nor there is a need for such that expenditure now.

On the other hand, if the active aircraft remains as the existing fleet of F-16C's, 215 aircraft are not sufficient to defend the Turkish Air Space. As one inspects the capabilities of the F-16E/F Block60 aircraft it can be realised that it can substitute a twin engine fighter bomber both for the Turkish and Hellenic Air Forces. When we begin receiving F-35A fighters by 2015, F-16C and F-16E fighters can still be used, when despite an upgrade, the F-4E's would be useless.

215 F-16C Block 30-40-50
30 F-16C Block 52+ for atrition losses
80 F-16E Block 60 for substitution of F-4E's.............315 F-16 fighters.
Supported by 4 B-737 AEW&C aircraft and 8 KC-135 tankers.

Comments?

F-4 modernization was for strike missions. F-4 Terminators have powerful SAR radar. and they are totally new. Their body was renewed too. They will fly until 2020.

I think Block60 would be nice for Tuaf. but they are very expensive. And i think they have not SAR radar. Block60s can't replace F-4 Terminator. We should use F-4s until we get F-35s. after that we can buy Block60 or Ef2000 to replace old block30s.

Surely, the Eurofighter consortium offers much more. I do not regret this option. Dependency on one particular model is not what I would like to happen, nor I have any relationship with Lockheed-Martin Very Happy

. I thought that it would be easier to use the new version of F-16, rather than investing much more time, money and manwork for accommodating a new aircraft such as the EF-2000

Let me renew my list:

215 F-16C Block30-40-50
54 F-4E 2020 Terminators
+40 EF2000s substituting non-modernised [Link pending approval] aircraft.

Or would you prefer?

215 F-16C Bl30-40-50
54 F-4E 2020 Terminators
+48 F-4E 2020 [Link pending approval] aircraft.

What do you think? Which list would you prefer?

BTW, is not the F-22 sufficiently hot new jet? Supporting thousands of F-16s, F-15s, strategic bombers, etc?

Quote:

What threat do your people have that requires a machine like the 52+ ?

Good question 260chief! Not our subject but hope the editors will bear a quick explanation: It's all about strategy. Turkish Armed Forces as well as the TuAF is shaped to cope with 2,5 war at a time. All arms procurement is done with this specific aim in mind. This could be one front at the west and one at the east. 0,5 substituding the supression of inner rebellions during wartime. Have a look at our n'bours, do you think we are all lifetime friends? I don't mean the nations but the politicians who very much like to manipulate people's mind using historic aggression. That's why we need these, It's the rule of nature...

Anyway, if I come to the point, second F-4E Terminator project is terminated. So no more modernised F-4Es... Going for the Typhoon in short-term till the JSF arrives is a good option in my point of view, when it comes to tech transfer and after-sales issues in mid-term. Need additional funds for the new infrastructure but it's an investment isn't it? Always requires money...

I understand now Otto, Thanks. I didn't know you were still flying F-4's.

Fantasma337 wrote:

The Phantoms are old and costly to maintain, buying new F-16s is the logical and cost effective step for [Link pending approval] Its is very unlikely imho that Turkey (or Greece) will buy both the Eurofighter and the [Link pending approval]

Otto, the HAF does not centralise its best pilots in one [Link pending approval] BTW the THK Block 30s were offered for sale to Hungary in the past, and lately they don't fly [Link pending approval]

turkey will receive around 120-150 joint strike fighters in 2015
but they are also considering the eurofighter. if they participate in eurofighter turkey will receive 4 squadrons of these fighters

Strongman, your analysis in the last page is pretty much on the mark....

Natoviper, the F-4 is an OLD jet with many problems, no matter how "modernised" it is... It costs a LOT of time AND money to maintain...

260chief, your question was very good and hit on the mark! I will not answer it though, because we will go off topic...

Turkiturki, do you know how much money and effort would be required to introduce in service 2 different types of NEW fighters almost at the same time??? Its not like walking into a car dealership,buying a car and driving away with it...

Do not agree on that Fantasma, TuAF quite happy with the F4E 2020s. When Defence ministry and TuAF first agreed on the second F4E modernisation programme, ministry insisted that the programme is carried out by TAI. In contrast TuAF was so satisfied with the terminators that they wanted IAI to do the job despite the higher unit price - but this is over now due to financial issues . The programme comprises both avionics and structural components (factory level maintenance- If the translation is correct). Live weapon tests in the Anatolian Eagle exercise also show pretty good results. One thing, the machine burns damn fuel.....

to answer an above post by strongman, staying with the fleet of new F-16s and keeping the F-4Es and scrapping the EF would be the way to go in my opinion. with F-16s and eurofighters...what exactly do they have in the way of a strike fighter that carries a heavy payload? im not familiar with the eurofighters A/G capabilites, but for an A/G platform id have to think the F-4E still beats both the eurofighter and the F-16 in terms of survivability and weapons load. id say stick with the phantoms as long as you possibly can, kinda think the US should have kept them in the wild weasel role for the same reasons.

F-4E Terminator + AGM-142 is a killer combination.

had no idea the turkish Phantoms could carry 142s...those ones are AMRAAM capable as well right?

Thanks for everyone who has commented on my [Link pending approval]

The F-4E 2020 Terminators have been upgraded so as to do the job the F-15E Strike Eagles would do if they were purchased in late 1990s. The Elta radar and the other state-of-the art avionics systems incorporated during the upgrade made the Terminators really lethal fighter-bombers. But the a/a capabilities were not so much upgraded as were the a/g capabilities. I have not much information about an Amraam capability, but I do not think so the Terminators can use them. On the other hand, with Popeye-I and Popeye-II stand-off weapons and highly capable synthetic aperture radar target acquisition they can eliminate high priority targets at long ranges.

Our topic is the purchase of 30 new Block 52+ F-16s,[Link pending approval]
That number of fighters should be thought as replacements of the losses that were encountered to date. Along with the CCIP programme for the upgrade of the Block 40 and 50 aircrafts to the 52+ standarts, these new aircraft may fulfill the requirements of the squadrons lacking sufficient number of aircraft. So, to emphasize what I mean, the purchasal of 30 new 52+ F-16s should not be considered as a supplement for the abortion of 48 F-4E Phantom upgrade programme. Those F-4E aircraft that will not be upgraded are used in two fighter squadrons for interception missions during which they carry AIM-7E Sparrows and AIM-9B/P Sidewinders! Their avionics, structural components and weapons are all obsolete. So, if they are not going to be upgraded, they have to be replaced with a new aircraft. Considering about which aircraft could replace a [Link pending approval] Which fighter can replace a twin engine fighter, a legend like a Phantom? What are your offers?

danimal1504 wrote:

had no idea the turkish Phantoms could carry 142s...those ones are AMRAAM capable as well right?

Yes,Turkish F-4 Terminators carry AGM-142. They haven't AMRAAM capability but AIM-7 Sparrow.

Forum: F-16 News

Turkey's possible new F-16 block 52+ purchase