Forum: Careers & Assignments

JR007, thank you for your input. Wow, someone who's a pilot and still a maintainer! I may not have been fortunate enough to get to fly the Viper, but I have had enough experience with both pilots and maintainers to say that you are absolutely correct.

I am now in the Guard and about half of our pilots were maintainers once themselves. I have also sat alert with pilots and have gotten to know them pretty well. There are good and bad on both sides, but in my opinion it is the maintainers that get taken for granted and get less respect than they deserve. I know a few pilots that were once crew chiefs, for a few it seems like they forgot where they came from. These are the ones that have a problem for let's say RTWS, but won't do an extended BIT before they shut down---then get mad when they see in the forms that we CND'd the system because didn't have all of the fault information from that flight and we couldn't get it to fail!!! We're also had a couple pilots trying to do the troubleshooting for us on radar problems and tell us what LRU's to change. As it turns out, they did not have access to the FIs and were wrong.

On that note, I am a firm beliver in reciprocity between aircrew and maintainers---within rank structure of course. It's our job to give you a good aircraft, and it's your job to take care of that aircraft (we all pay taxes so we all own it!), and when it breaks it is your job to assist in a thurough debrief and maybe run a couple of checks in the chalks if we need you to before you shut down.

The whole thing of if I screw up it doesn't affect him, it's my a$$ on the line doesn't hold water with me. Sure you're the one strapping the jet engine to your back and are at a greater risk for the most part. We are at risk as well, what about the EPU? I've seen a couple of EPU activations that were the pilots fault and the ground crew had to go the the hospital to get checked out. What about the pilot who had the gear handle up on a launch---relying totally on his WOW switches? A crew chief got his back broken over that one. I've also seen flight control surfaces being moved on a recovery with no warning to the "B" man (me, and I still have a scar on my head!). I know my SA wasn't what it whould have been, but you should get my point.

You get flight pay for what you do, we don't get hazard pay--even for being around Hydrazine and pulling the EPU pin on launch. I'm not saying that you need to kiss a$$, but a little respect and professional courtesy go a long way.

Just my thoughts, not trying to cause a war or add fuel to the fire.

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You're fully correct Mohody Smile

!

I have news for all of you. Even if the pilot screws up and, hopefully ejects safely, the first person in front of the investigation is the Crew Chief. The aircraft forms and maintenance personnel that did anything to the aircraft are in front of the investigating team. The relationship between pilot and crew chief has evolved as most crew chiefs in the USAF are in the process of getting their degree, or already have it. Someone wrote of the difference in education, well, it's not so different anymore. Basically, the aircraft is the Crew Chiefs while on the ground and the pilots in the air. The CC wants that aircraft to return home safely, just as the pilot does. Any pilot that doesn't think he needs a crew chief is just another loose nut behind the stick, zipper suit insert or AIRCREW. My 20 years in the USAF on the F-16 has shown probably 90% of pilots respect their Crew Chief, if you don't, I'm afraid you are going to have to take the spare aircraft.

Ciao

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I have news for all of you. Even if the pilot screws up and, hopefully ejects safely, the first person in front of the investigation is the Crew Chief.

That's not news. My urine and blood, as well as a sleep/meal history is taken as well, regardless of the cause.

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Someone wrote of the difference in education,

Where's that? I missed it.

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Any pilot that doesn't think he needs a crew chief is just another loose nut behind the stick, zipper suit insert or AIRCREW.

I've never met a pilot who didn't think he needed maintenance.

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My 20 years in the USAF on the F-16 has shown probably 90% of pilots respect their Crew Chief, if you don't, I'm afraid you are going to have to take the spare aircraft.

So if my crew chief doesn't feel respected I won't get top-notch maintenance? I wouldn't want to work on a team with people who put personal relations above the mission. I don't compromise weapons delivery if I don't like my flight lead. Should I over-g my stores if my chief was slow on the ground? I've heard that argument, that 'you had better take care of your maintainers or else...' and I think people with that attitude should be sent to T-37s or something that breaks anyway.

I posted this before, but let me try to make it clear again. I respect the job my maintainers do, and I respect the maintainers who do it well. Most of the guys at my base are top notch, a few aren't. I'm on a first-name basis with most of them, and I've rarely been dissapointed. I frequently buy them beers downtown on the weekends. We both have functions that overlap for one hour a day, and during that time we have to work together to accomplish the mission. Without either one of us, the mission won't get done. That being said, their mission is to support my mission.

This tangent started because I stated that I am the bottom line on signing off a jet. How do I know it's airworthy? 99% because maintenance says so. I don't know what lies behind most of those panels, and I can only visibly see one stage of the motor. My preflight is largely just a quick 'big picture' look at the jet. But I've also seen oil caps left dangling, empty hydraulic reservoirs, torque-links disconnected, incorrect cart settings, depleted oxygen tanks, popped delta-p's, nose-strut overservicing, and a few others. Big deal? Not really, things fall through the cracks, as they do on my end of the job. But when I select vMax and oil pisses all over the runway, it's bad on me for not catching a missing oil cap. Will the maintainers get their nuts hammered for it? You bet, but I'll be the under a parachute if I didn't catch it either.

Like I said before....everyone has the same goal. Fly jets - take out bad guys. That's it. Like in life, there will be people you get along with and people you don't. The military is not different than corporate america, having just retired from the Air Force (well in 02) and now working for a large company, I see the same things here I saw on the flight line. Everyone works for someone else, and you try to accomplish the goal (mission). Sometime you get along , sometimes you don't, but that doesn't ever get in the way of the job/mission.

I'll tell you, I have have had many an argument with pilots about weapons release issues, and I have had many a beer with pilots for kicking a$$ out there (i.e. Gunsmoke, USAFE LOADEO, DS 1/OSW/ONW). We win best maintence, they win best bomber, and together WE will overall Champ! Everyone answers to someone, and everyone has to pay the piper should something happen.

One Team One Fight!

Well said Loader, in the end it's all of our butts on the line and we are all in it together. To quote a rather famous saying from the 90's, "Can't we all just get along?".

How come I don't get any beer when thet jet's code III (and not because I over-g'd it?)???

(heh heh -- JOKE GUYS)

STBY Gains isn't trying to ruffle feathers. He makes the point that there are VERY FEW maintainers and drivers that don't get along. For every "the pilot did this..." Stby, Gums, myself, and others can tell a story about a maintainer that shouldn't have been around the jet. We can fight this battle all day. I totally agree that ULTIMATELY feelings have no bearing on the J.O.B. getting D.U.N. By nature, the chief wants his weapons to be sharp in battle. By nature, pilots strive for the aptitude to use that weapon fiercely. In the end, BOTH want and deserve credit.

I get along with people by nature. I demand my machine perform IAW T.O. My Cheif demands I fly the weapon IAW T.O.

Cylon

Yo! Loader-breath!!!

I distinctly recall being chewed out by a MSgt load crew chief after his troops reported me for loosening the rack sway braces with my trusty vicegrips.

'twas on the Super Tweet, and we had spring-operated BK-33 racks (or something like that). Hell, suckers prolly came off of some WW2 plane. They had to pull back a strong spring to cock the lugs.

Anyway, with no cartridge ejectors, our bombs would hang up if the sway braces were too tight. If we were unloaded a bit, the nape cans would float and even come up in front of the wing and wrap around it. After I pulled off one day with a hung MK-82, and then the thing fell off when on downwind. I decided to ensure that the sway braces were 'loose'. Hell that one egg coulda hit some friendlies.

So a few days later I had my butt handed to me by that grizzled, old 'loader' and I didn't forget. In the end, we all made sure that some godzilla-type would not use a thermonuclear pneumatic wrench to torque the sway braces.

So I vote with you, LOADER. Takes a team, regardless of who 'bites the bullet' (for real or in Court).

And to Cylon....Amen.

He he. After seeing this operation many many many times first hand, all that needs to be said is both the driver and the maintainer are so fortunate to be in this job that has to be the maximum possible experience of job satisfaction and mission accomplishment. Every job in the Force is important but working in personnel, supply or other "loggy" jobs, CE, finance, PMEL, legal/JA, intel, admin,Com, etc ( all of which I have also seen first hand many times ( basically the whole wiring diagram of the air force ) Yeah those other jobs are very important, but.... I am almost at a lack of words, anyway, sure I guess the topic of this thread is important but in the bigger picture, you guys have IMHO the ultimate USAF jobs. Period.

My favorite line from a movie that applies here would be from the movie Patton, where he says: "Years from now when you are bouncing your grandson on your knee and he asks: 'Grandpa... what did you do in the great world war 2?'.... You won't have to put him over to your other knee and say: ' Well..... I shovled **** in Louisiana. ' "

I like your thinking ELP. There's not a place I'd rather be than the flightline-we have the best jobs in the military. Whether it be as an avionics troop, pilot (unfortunately I'm too old now), or as a maintenance officer the next 26 years of my life are probably going to be spent working on the flightline.

I don't know if they still do this or not, but when I was in the 34th FS at Hill AFB we had some job swapping that went on from time to time. What would happen is that a pilot would be married up with a maintenance troop and spend the day in the shop observing and sometimes working with that individual. This also went the other way as well, a mantenance troop would go over to Ops and observe a day-in-the-life of a pilot.

This gave people a chance to see how the other half live. There's a lot of things that go on that is hard to explain to a person unless they can see it first hand. I would say that a majority of the maintenance troops don't know the half of what a pilot does to get ready for an hour sortie. This would give them a greater appreciation of what he/she goes through other than thinking that they just jump in the cockpit fly and then go home.

Likewise, it gave aircrew a chance to see what exactly goes into getting a jet ready to fly and what it takes to fix a broke jet. Contrary to popular belief, avionics does more than just swap boxes---there are lots of people who have that opinion. This helped to open the lines of communication because there is a lot of things that the pilot does with the jet that we can't duplicate on the ground, and knowing these limitations we can get a better debrief out of a pilot so we can be more effective in our jobs.

My advice to everyone out there is to maybe try to make a program like this work in your squadron. It's much easier to see the other point of view when you walk a mile in anothers shoes---this goes both ways.

More head than body...How is it going? Guess who? Well anyways its seems that this thread went downhill fast. I remember the days of job swapping back at Hill with the pilots. It was cool to see a pilot hand out tools and see what is required to keep a bird airworthy other than gas, oil, tires, and a clean canopy. At the same time I was amazed at the amount time and planning required to have these new pilots upgraded and ready for combat. It was an excellent experience, and I would like to see it as a requirement at every base.

I am guilty of doing my fair share of stupid things, but at the same time, I have pulled quite a few pens, pencils, NVG fingers lights, and other things that were dropped during flight. Nothing by either individual is ever down with any malice and the actions of each can directly affect one another.

I love what I do and I know they love what they do?In the memory of PSAB, One team, One fight?

Now come on, you're going to have to give me more than that to go on awetsock!

At luke they still swap jobs for a day, at least in my former squadron. All the studs going through the B-course get to work alongside the crew chiefs for a day. Helps them understand what the chiefs do all day and what they are exactly looking at during ground ops.

Unfortunately, we don't have a formal program for the maintainers. Usually though, the studs will take their favorite chiefs to a red carpet sim to let them see what it is the pilot is doing.

With the amount of empty sims and actual pits at luke, I'm suprised they don't have a more formal system to reward top notch maintainers.

-JF

jarflyer wrote:

I'm suprised they don't have a more formal system to reward top notch maintainers.

Hi Jarflyer,

I'm in the 309th at Luke and usually the B-course students just before they graduate will pick their favorite crew chief and get him something. (usually a gift certificate or something) We also have the Atta-Duck program when a pilot will fill out in debrief what the crew chief did above and beyond. Get three atta-ducks and get a day off.

I think Cylon has hit the proverbial nail on the cranium.

I would take the "swap jobs for a day" a step further to not only include maintainers but ammo as well. There's a pretty good program at Kunsan called "Iron Viper" where guys new to the AOR spends the day with ammo. Half of the day is taken by briefs from the various shops and the second half is going out and getting hands on with building up a JDAM or a GBU. The ammo guys get a kick out of wathing pilots try to turn a wrench and we got a chance to see another link in the beautiful thing that is "putting bombs on target".

Not to break the momentum of the thread but...

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Must have just got the new Dos Gringos CD and was curious

For those not familiar with Dos Gringos, they are a couple of young Viper drivers that put out a CD after they got back from OIF. Their music is out of the Dick Jonas mold, and anybody familiar with the F-16 (especially wingmen) would get a kick out of it. They bring down the house every time they play in the squadron bar on a Friday night.

Push it UP!
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Forum: Careers & Assignments

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