Forum: Technology

I was just thinking how important the BVR missiles are in modern air combat.I read an article about the performance of F-4 in Vietnam war. It said the BVR was not very useful because the chances of shooting down of a friendly aircraft could not be negleted.

My question is how significant are BVR missiles now. Does AWACS make them more useful?

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I'm thinking that real-time satellite imaging can make them a whole lot more useful, though I'm no air warfare tactician.

Something tells me that Gums will hop in and give another river of information, but nonetheless, me little knowledge says me that:

In Vietnam, it was hard for USAF/USN pilots to engage. I believe all the job then was done via GCI and AWACS was nonexistent. Due to ROE, pilots rarely had the chance for true BVR and most aircraft should be visually IDed first (which, of course takes the "B" out of BVR). So, that's where BVR doctrine failed back then. It also seems to involve the incredible unreliability of the first radar-guided missiles used by the USAF (don't recall their name now), as well as of the USN's Sparrow - something that improved on later versions but not fixed. And since you can't fire a 'winder BVR (do IMC conditions count as BVR ? Laughing

)...

Now today there are big differences. AWACS, tactics, intel and more flexible ROE have made BVR easier. Add the great AIM-120 (reliable and nice Pk) to the package and I think that most of today's USAF/USN job is done BVR. And with the future USAF being F-22 and F-35, I bet it will still be BVR.

So, it seems that yes, today's tactics and weapons make BVR trully possible, compared to the past.

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

In addition to better SA thanks to digital data links and E-3s, to compare BVR performance in Vietnam to today you really have to compare the AIM-7 to the AIM-120. And the AMRAAM puts the Vietnam-era Sparrow to shame.

Guysmiley wrote:

In addition to better SA thanks to digital data links and E-3s, to compare BVR performance in Vietnam to today you really have to compare the AIM-7 to the AIM-120. And the AMRAAM puts the Vietnam-era Sparrow to shame.

This technology and better IFF could enable more and more fighters to be cleared for BVR shots......Depends on R.O.E.s and the mission. If a visual ID is required extreme BVR shots still won`t happen...

Salute!

TNX for the nice words, seat-breath.

Snake can comment more well-informed than I. I just dropped bombs and blew up stuff.

Problem in 'nam wasn't lack of GCI or AWACS. We had "Disco", the predecessor of the real AWACS. It was good, too.

Problem was stupid ROE that required a "visual". Operation Bolo threw that rule away and USAF did pretty good that day.

For over twenty years we have had some neat capabilities that do not force the jock to visually I.D. the bandit. And AWACS has really helped.

The face shot is a good thing, and even the Sparrow did better in that mode than a tail chase or turning fight. Nowadays, we have a lower RCS, so's it's possible for both sides to get too close for an effective head-on shot with older missiles. AIM-9L and later are very effective when too close for a radar-guided missile, so don't rule out the face shot.

Bottom line is that BVR engagements are MORE likely nowadays than before. Better missiles, better fire control gear onboard, better GCI, better everything. Fewer "good guys" in the area, etc.

later...

Just to add a little more:

Keep in mind that we have over a generation and a half to further develop and refine today's sensors, avionics, and BVR weaponry (missiles). They are SIGNIFICANTLY better than what was comparatively available in the late 60's to early 70's. As I mentioned before, the preferred method of engagement.

Also, keep in mind that many of today's fighters have the HMD/S systems (JHMCS, DASH, the upcoming F-35 HMD) coupled with today's high off-bore sight missiles (AIM-9X, PYTHON 4/5, IRIS-T, AA-11/R-73 Archer, ASRAAM). They are preferably to be avoided at all costs. The expanded envelope and capabilities of these systems along with the unpredictability of the dogfight is somewhere you really don't want to be at, (and the reason why our older legacy aircraft such as the F-15, F-16, and F-18s are getting the AIM-9X/JHMCS now to increase their close-in capabilities). It is not the glamorous dogfights of WWI, WWII, Korean War, and to some extent, Vietnam.

Yeah, I myself created a topic on WVR: http://www.f-16.net/index.php?name=PNph ... opic&t=223

The conclusion is: even the Raptor would have a hard time beating a HMD/HOBS missile

So, I go with Red Baron: "Your best shot is fired when the enemy does not know you are there"!

That's why stealth+BVR is so important.

BVR is great and all, but in order to keep it that way people have to be disciplined. I cant tell you how many times I have seen someone shoot bvr and kill a good guy...common excuses include "well he was in the red block," or "he was a hot contact on my scope," or "he wasnt on my datalink so he couldnt be friendly," or my personal favorite "well I heard the word hostile from gci so I shot." Bad juju...

But most of the times the BOGEY has to be visually identified, here the BVR is almost useless...isn't it.I am only making a rough guess so please correct me if i am wrong Embarassed

pafpilot wrote:

how important the BVR missiles are in modern air combat.

Very important. BVR missile can be used in BVR or distant WVR. BVR can be used to whittle down the enemy force before they get close.

pafpilot wrote:

I read an article about the performance of F-4 in Vietnam war. It said the BVR was not very useful because the chances of shooting down of a friendly aircraft could not be negleted.

Yes, BVR kills were placed on hold after an F-105 was shot down by an American aircraft at a range of twenty-four miles.

pafpilot wrote:

how significant are BVR missiles now. Does AWACS make them more useful?

Very significant. Yes, AWACS does help because they can sort out the good guys from the bad guys before they get into range of the BVR weapons.

renatohm wrote:

The conclusion is: even the Raptor would have a hard time beating a HMD/HOBS missile

Let us just say, it is the best chance any other aircraft will have is the get into a furball involving an F-22. The F-22 having a higher T/W ratio and lower wing loading will enable the F-22 to out maneuver any other aircraft.
Really, even with all missiles expended and having only guns, having first look will allow the F-22 to get to a position where it can bounce the opposition where the first thing the enemy knows is when the 20mm shells make impact with their aircraft.

clown_shoes wrote:

BVR is great and all, but in order to keep it that way people have to be disciplined. I cant tell you how many times I have seen someone shoot bvr and kill a good guy...

One real problem is firng at a BVR target is, it could be a good guy whos aircraft has battle damage and just trying to get home. Limited avionics (no IFF), etc. not at assigned altitude and in a area where he will enter friend airspace from the wrong direction. Unless someone takes the time to get a visual, this good guy almost killed by the bad guys will be killed by friendly fire.

BVR can be a great way of dealing with a large number of enemy before you get to the merge, to prevent a furball. In an opening phase of aircombat where enemy and friends can be determined easily, yes. In a situation where for one reason or another the combat picture becomes confused then, a visual would be required in my opinion.
Thinking about it, I can't remember the last time (SEE NOTE) where a US missile was fired from a distance greater than fifthteen miles.

NOTE;
Since the Viet Namese War & other than the Iran/Iraq War where F-14A/Phoenix Missile kills exceeded fifthteen miles.

Adrian

Forum: Technology

Significance of BVR in modern Air Combat