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What is a short run-down on the differences between the F-16 and the major variants (Mitsubishi F-2, IAI Lavi)?

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F-16.net Webmaster Joined: May 23, 2003 Posts: 2354

Do you mean the difference in visual appearance or do you mean the technical specifications?

Here is the visual difference between the F-2 and the F-16.

The general configuration of the F-2 is all but identical to that of the F-16, and it takes a trained eye to distinguish the two aircraft. The F-2 does have clear differences, in that its wing has 25% greater area than that of the F-16 and a span increased by 1.68 meters (5 feet 6 inches); a tailplane assembly that is about 20% larger than that of an F-16; and a slight fuselage stretch to accommodate increased fuel capacity and new avionics.

The nose contours are also subtly different, giving the F-2 a more "duckbilled" appearance relative to the F-16. The F-2 was supposed to have twin fins under the engine intake, apparently something like the fins on the AFTI F-16, but these fins were deleted in the final design definition. The F-2 also has a brake chute, and the long brake chute fairing at the base of the tail is another distinctive identifying item.

Other so-called F-16 derivative are the Taiwanese "Ching Kuo", which is essentially a new aircraft that clearly differs from the F-16, but equally clearly owes much to the F-16 design.

The most recent derivative of the F-16 to fly is the Korean Aircraft Industries "Golden Eagle", which is basically an 80% scale version of the F-16.

It has often been discussed before but I don't think you could really call the LAVI a derivative.

Let's not forget the F-16XL as a derivative! It's maiden flight was almost exactly 21 years ago!

Lieven wrote:

It has often been discussed before but I don't think you could really call the LAVI a derivative.

What is the scoop with the Lavi?

It looked like a Viper with canards.

F-16.net Webmaster Joined: May 23, 2003 Posts: 2354

HaroldHutchison wrote:

What is the scoop with the Lavi?

It looked like a Viper with canards.

The Lavi had just one thing shared with the F-16 - the lower intake.

The Lavi had a delta/trapez wing and canards, had PW-1250 jet and was original designed as a double seater so on the single seater version, you'll have lots of room for avionics.

The aircraft was intended to be an all in one a/c - a trainer for the IAF flight school's OTU, full AA ability and close support.

It was a combination of the TA-4, A-4 and F-16 and Kfir, but the design pointed towards a "modular" a/c - an aircraft that would be able th be upgraded by simply loading a new software into it's flight management computers, and plugging in different "black" boxes - the idea was that the airframe wouldn't require much modifications and modernization.

The Lavi was designed to accept both refueling systems (as the IAF F-4E II do) and the cockpit was the most advanced known to military aviation (3 multiplication Crystal Displays and advanced avionics).

The rumor says the Lavi could be flown as wild weasel missions with no special mission's payload or conversions, systems that were integrated later to the IF-16D, but this is really a wild guess.

The problem of the Lavi was the timing - the PW-1250 - developed according to IAF specifications were designed according to a revolutionary concept - they had to accept most components of th F-100 so the IAF would not need a special storage of replacements for this jet, the jet would have to be constructed (at least a part of it) by the Beit-Shemesh jet factory.

The IAF even installed one of the jets in the F-4 (just to test it, and the pilots were amazed - it was really powerful, and much more fuel efficient - so two such jets were installed and even demonstrated at the Paris air show ("Super Phantom" carrying the number 229) - the result was really stunning but then MD refused to approve this modification. (Some say the Super Phantom offered flight performance to be equaled by the F-18, and endangered future sales of the F-18, offering jet replacement to a vast number of F-4s around the world).

The Lavi turned to be a grand performing a/c at a relatively low price - in fact it threatened sales of the F-16 too.

With the pressure of both GD and MD, the US government withdrew from their support to the project, and offered the A-10, F-16 and even the AV-8 as replacements in addition to other cookies - the UH-60, AH-64 F-15I and ships all Israeli wishes which were previously rejected.

The Israeli government could not finance the project without the help of the US support, and the project was canceled.

Some system development remained in progress, and found their way into the air in other a/cs.

The IAI continued to operate one of the prototypes of the Lavi as "Lavi TD" as a testbed and demonstrator.

Some Aviation magazine editors flew the Lavi during 1989 and were display impressed - one of them wrote (can't remember if it was "Flight" or Aviation News"): Now when the coalition forces fight in the gulf they miss the aircraft they really need. - It's a real shame that I had to fly the worlds best fighter knowing it would never get into service..."

A total of 5 Lavi airframes were consructed - 3 of those even recieved wings (the other two just had a fuselage, and that wasn't even covered -those should have recieved the stronger "operational" wing).

1 Lavi was left at the IAI and redesignated as LAVI TD (TechnologyDemonstrator), and the other one was delivered for display at the IDF/AFmuseum.

The remaining 3 were delivered to a metal work and were melted in an evenwell covered by the Israeli media about a year ago.

The Aluminum work wasn't even alowed to disassamble the a/c or sell someof the parts as suveniers...

PS: Did you know the Lavi could take a direct hit of a 23mm round in the wing without any effect on performance ?

Thanks to Tsahi for the info

I'v heard that the F-2 is alot more expensive then the F-16.

I thought I would revive this topic.

There are three production aircraft whose designs benefitted directly from the F-16 and those have been mentioned - the Japanese FS-X/F-2, the Taiwanese IDF/Ching Kuo and the Korean T-50/Golden Hawk. I say they benefitted directly because I know for a fact that the F-2, the IDF and the T-50 were for the most part designed at General Dynamics (Lockheed) in Ft Worth TX by teams of engineers from both GD and Japan/Taiwan/Korea respectively. While you won't see the IDF on Lockheed's website (long story) you will see the F-2 and T-50 mentioned there.

One could say that the Israeli Lavi and even the Chinese J-10 were based on the F-16 but that is about like saying the Soviet Blackjack was based on the USAF Rockwell B-1. Sure they share similar features but then you can say that about a lot of aircraft. Their designs were not 'cooperative' efforts.

OK, what I really wanted to mention in this thread is the cockpit layouts of the F-16, F-2, IDF and T-50. I think we all know what an F-16 cockpit looks like, and I have seen the F-2 cockpit (looks like the Block 60) but I have only seen one small image each of the IDF and T-50 cockpits. The IDF looked almost exactly like an F-16 and the T-50 looked very similar. Does anyone have any more inormation, images or links to images of the IDF and T-50 cockpits?

GregD

Commando, yes - the F-2 is a lot more expensive than even the newest F-16s. I have heard numbers anywhere from 2x to 5x as much as an F-16. JASDF has cut production numbers several times due to the increased costs of the F-2 program.

GregD

THE LAVI ISN'T A F-16 VARIANT!

Lavi never went into production either. No need to shout.

I have heard people say they saw Lavi engineering drawings at GD but that has just been hearsay. I know for a fact that Taiwan had a joint facility in Ft Worth (on Vickery Blvd I think) and we had Mitsubishi engineers at GD in Ft Worth and GD engineers at Mitsubishi in Japan when I was on the FS-X program.

GregD

So Air-Air wise you think the F-2 is better than the viper?

Lieven, a few corrections.

His engine was the PW1120.

At first, all of the engine was supposed to be manufactured in Israel, but the Beit-Shemesh engines factory couldn't deal with it, so only small parts of it were eventually built in Israel.

All the alternatives that the US suggested were called "Tik ha'halufot", the alternatives briefcase. You must notice that they offered many different kinds of airplanes, both fighter planes and choppers (!) as if one of them is better than the Lavi. But the truth was that the Lavi was the only fighter plane in the world that could do most of these alternative's missions (not to mention it's cheap price).

Eventually, Israel lost billions of dolars in the F-16I and F-15I deals, and the Lavi project was only short of 600 millions $$.

The TD was operated until the mid 90', when his engine ended it's life. That same engine was brought into display this year in the IAF museum.
Two aviation reporters visited the TD just before the Gulf war. You quoted one of them. BTW, the F-16's chief test pilot at that time visited the TD in 1992 and said: "A wonderful little fighter you got here.." "He flies like a dream". And he was right. For me, and many other Israelis, he is a dream, a sweet fantasy. (-:

For those of us that know the Lavi well, listening to people saying the Lavi is a rip off of the F-16 is simply annoying. Being designing a visual model of it gave me the chance to know it well than anyone. And trust me, his intake is the only thing it has in common with the Falcon, though it is smaller. Personally, the similarity between their intakes doesn't surprise me, as they suck air to very similar engines.

Erez

Here are some pics of the IAI Lavi
http://www.geocities.com/TimesSquare/Cavern/6130/iafm_lavi.htm

pics + info
http://www.israeli-weapons.com/weapons/aircraft/lavi/Lavi.html

pics + info
http://www.geocities.com/goose_topgun2000/lavi.html

Isn't the Lavi being used by the Chinese which named it the J-10

F-50 is easy to easy to identify, because its intakers are located where those of FA18s are

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