Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

AESA based signals do not dissipate with range the way tradition radio signals do. Since they are focused in a certain sector, they spread less as they travel thereby loosing less energy.

As far as what freq to listen for, I can only go off of tech that we used when I was in the US Army in the late 80's. My guess is that the comm systems are programmed with a rotating set of "reconnect" freqs that change every 10 seconds or so. At most each F-22 would only have to listen to two different freqs.

How would the AWACS know where any F-22s are. It cannot be picked up on it's radar beyond 50 miles or so.

btw, did the SATCOM get pulled from F-22 Blk30 or is it still in there?

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SpudmanWP wrote:

AESA based signals do not dissipate with range the way tradition radio signals do. Since they are focused in a certain sector, they spread less as they travel thereby loosing less energy
.
True Spud. But perhaps with 1500+ T/R modules plus the ability to steer these very quickly and independently, a F-22 could very quickly transmit a "ping" at least in its forward hemisphere.

As far as what freq to listen for, I can only go off of tech that we used when I was in the US Army in the late 80's. My guess is that the comm systems are programmed with a rotating set of "reconnect" freqs that change every 10 seconds or so. At most each F-22 would only have to listen to two different freqs.

The same principle could apply only likely using a LOT more frequencies due to tech advances in comms.. anything to make potential eavesdroppers job more difficult.

How would the AWACS know where any F-22s are. It cannot be picked up on it's radar beyond 50 miles or so.

Agree. But apparently the F-22s will know where each aother are as MADL is said to employ a daisy-link model and once one F-22 receive any transmission, it passes it along the chain.

I came across a new term/concept (ie. CNI), that appears to have some relevance to how a stealthy F-22 knows where the other Raptors are. Its ca;;ed a "digital sweep" whatever that means // very cryptic and not very enlightening but that's to be expected.

http://www.sldinfo.com/?p=21086

Q: This fleet operating in a distributed operations environment or operating like a roving motorcycle gang also means that your force is much harder to defeat. The adversary can’t know in advance with complete certainty how the Blue team is going to attack or what they’re going to attack.

Former Senior USAF Officer: The fifth gen isn’t just about stealth obviously; it is also about information dominance. These two capabilities allow the 5th gen assets the ability to freely move. And you can freely move because you know where everyone is as much as possible. CNI is a critical part of this operational capability. CNI is not just a bunch of federated radios that do one single function.

Q: What does CNI stand for?

Former Senior USAF Officer: CNI is Communication Navigation Identification.

Q: This allows the stealth aircraft to identify one another?

Former Senior USAF Officer: It’s a digital sweep, which takes care of your communication and IFF needs and navigation so that they’re integrated. The stealth airplane wants to limit its exposure for radar cross section (RCS) and signal emanations. You don’t want to have all kinds of antennas that might make you more detectable.

Really interesting article there, cheers for linking it.

It confirmed what many thought about Link 16 being unstealthy when he said "If you go in with the Link 16 or you go in relying on voice coms on your 5th generation aircraft, it is like turning on big light bulb with the enemy able to see me now no matter where you are."

and

"We’re still primarily link 16 players, and if you’re not on link 16, you’re not part of the net. With the LO airplanes, its not really a feasible network to be on due to characteristics that are counter to stealth practices. Additionally being typically further forward in the battlefield it is more susceptible to jamming."

IMO the F-22 will get MADL eventually , money allowing.

An interesting question could be how effective the S/L band based AWACS are vs LO and VLO targets. One could consider if a podded radar could also be developed to better equip legacy aircraft being life extended? If I could make critical upgrade to an AWACS though, perhaps it would be to integrate a very large aperture (>280mm aperture) LW IRST ball (or two) Search system to help better pick up low flying next-gen VLO cruise missile type threats?

I guess, it's good time as any to debunk another myth...

Here's an L16 apparatus:
http://www3.rockwellcollins.com/ecat/gs/MIDS_LVT.html
(more details here > www.dtic.mil/whs/directives/corres/pdf/465001r1p.pdf)

The first link reads...

Multiple Power Modes:
Normal: 200W
Medium: 25W
Low: 1W

...which means the system operates in, at least, 3 different power output modes, 200W, 25W and 1W.
Now, L16 is indeed an isotropic radio source, but when operating in 1W (f.e.) output power setting, it's virtually undetectable to anything, but the planes within formation, same as F22's MADL.
Once it gets into higher power output levels, the L16 may get discovered, but then again it has so much range, that obtaining a firing solution out of its triangulation, at such ranges, is really a moot point.

Now, I'd guess MADL should have some advantages in mid-ranges, due its anisotropic design and sufficient(?) power to get there in the first place, but the myth in which L16 is "a light bulb", or similar stupidity, simply needs to be addressed.

Sorry mate but once again you're out of your depth. We know from multiple sources who are 'in the know' on a scale far beyond yours that Link 16 is a beacon. Now obviously you don't like to hear that because it's on your favourite jet (Typhoon) but that doesn't change the cold reality.
Don't worry though, i'm sure Typhoon will get a link 16 replacement at some point in the future.

(PS - you'd be wise to read tha article a few posts up, those guys who use this kit for real know a damnsight more about LO/VLO technology and tactics than you could ever dream of.)

shep1978 wrote:

Sorry mate but once again you're out of your depth. We know from multiple sources who are 'in the know' on a scale far beyond yours that Link 16 is a beacon. Now obviously you don't like to hear that because it's on your favourite jet (Typhoon) but that doesn't change the cold reality.
Don't worry though, i'm sure Typhoon will get a link 16 replacement at some point in the future.

(PS - you'd be wise to read tha article a few posts up, those guys who use this kit for real know a damnsight more about LO/VLO technology and tactics than you could ever dream of.)

Additionally, non-stealthy apertures also help betray the location, as well as the omni-directional nature of the emissions.

The French pilots said after mockup fights in Dubai that Rafale was capable of detecting the Raptor.
When the radar is not used, the missile can use the OSF (a TV Camera associated to a laser range finder), the datas provided by another aircraft through the MIDS, an IR sourcee detected by OSF or a localisation by SPECTRA.

Wow - so they detected it on a camera - why didnt anyone think....damn damn!!! Rolling Eyes

Don't forget that the range was a whooping <1 mile Smile

SpudmanWP wrote:

Don't forget that the range was a whooping <1 mile Smile

These images might also have been taken from longer distance with zoom we don't know.. According to Dassault ,Rafales OSF is capable of detecting, tracking and designating targets .

Typical max zoom is 4-5x. That image is HUGE (and not very pixilated) in the display thereby showing the extremely close range. 2nd Clue as to a very close range is that the second picture is taken from above. Even if you were 10000 feet above the Raptor, that is only 2 miles.

That last phrase "OSF is capable of detecting, tracking and designating targets" apples to EVERY radar and IRST in existence, including the Mk1 Eyeball. The key is at what range.

The most telling thing about the Rafale Vs Raptor dogfights that took place was that F-22 pilots, most with around just 100 hours on it were able to hold their own and beat the Rafale for no losses. I don't care which side you're but either way that's damn immpressive. I should mention the Rafale pilots were experienced veterans too, some with 1000+ hours on the Rafale.

We also don't know if Rafales OSF was queued by Rafales radar in images shown above. (Note the F-22 IS wearing its RCS reflector)

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Raptor - invisible to AWACS?