Forum: F-35 Lightning II

I will freely admit that i'm not 100% sure but as far as I know Typhoon is limited to 35 degrees AoA.
It may have done more in tests (like Rafale did) but in service it is limited for certain reasons, probably FCS limits as you say. It (high AOA) may not be sustainable either like Typhoon though other jets such as the F-18 can sustain the AOA so thrust vectoring is not the excuse you are looking for here, at least not in my non professional opinion.

I stick by what I wrote and using the Raptor as a base for comparison as Beesley (more of an expert than anyone on this forum, no disrespect meant) did it would seem F-35 should certainly be able to better the Typhoon in the AOA department, sustainable or not. Until proven otherwise i'd learn to live with it if I were you.

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shep1978 wrote:

I will freely admit that i'm not 100% sure but as far as I know Typhoon is limited to 35 degrees AoA.
It may have done more in tests (like Rafale did) but in service it is limited for certain reasons, probably FCS limits as you say. It (high AOA) may not be sustainable either like Typhoon though other jets such as the F-18 can sustain the AOA so thrust vectoring is not the excuse you are looking for here, at least not in my non professional opinion.

I stick by what I wrote and using the Raptor as a base for comparison as Beesley (more of an expert than anyone on this forum, no disrespect meant) did it would seem F-35 should certainly be able to better the Typhoon in the AOA department, sustainable or not. Until proven otherwise i'd learn to live with it if I were you.

The AoA isn't limited by FCS limits, but the AoA limits the AoA on aerodynamic grounds, mainly safety reasons. A Flanker can easily fly at >100° for a short period of time, yet its FCS limits the AoA to much lower values (~25° - 30° depending on the variant). An F-16 could fly with much higher AoAs than 25°, but its FCS limits it to that value and so can others including a Typhoon or the F-35. Some FCS doesn't permit an override such as that of the F-16 or Typhoon, while others do such as that of the Su-27/3X or Rafale for example. No idea wether the F-35s FCS will allow it or not. Sorry to say so but it appears you have not even the slightest clue about what you are talking and that's the reason why you just uncritically swallow any claim which sounds good for you, wether it makes sense or not doesn't interest you as you lack the knowledge/understanding to assess such claims as done by Mr. Beesley. In public interviews pilots are unfortunantely often quite vague and while people with a certain level of understanding/knowledge would raise questions, guys like you just swallow it and ask no questions, why should you it's one of your pet toys so you like consuming such stuff. Will the F-35 provide a better AoA performance than the Typhoon? I don't know, I say lets see wether the F-35 will be able to do so or not. I'm personally a bit reserved about the claim of "matching most of the F-22s high AoA manoeuvers".
But you are free to believe what you want, I don't bother, but I put things into the perspective and raise questions or simply point out limitations based on knowledge and understanding of how things work in general. Maybe you should start to allocate some of your time to start learn some basics, instead of consuming LM marketing claims you then quote infinitely.

Hey no worries if you don't want to except what Beesley said, afterall, he obviously knows absolutely nothing about the F-35 and what it will be able to do. I think I'll listen to the real experts like you for example, in future. Thanks. Wink

shep1978 wrote:

Hey no worries if you don't want to except what Beesley said, afterall, he obviously knows absolutely nothing about the F-35 and what it will be able to do. I think I'll listen to the real experts like you for example, in future. Thanks. Wink

It has nothing to do with Mr. Beesley not knowing what he talks about, he certainly does. It's about people like you who obviously lack any comprehension of the matter and thereby swallow vague claims and make up stories out of them. I don't question Mr. Beesley claims as such, I question the lame interpretations by people like you and try to make you understand how things work, what is relevant and what are the limitations. But if you prefer to keep on your fanboy level, so be it.

Oh dear, getting personel again I see.
You say that I "lack any comprehension of the matter and thereby swallow vague claims" yet you say you don't question Beesleys claims which are the very same claims i'm suppossedly swallowing down with no comprehension!
What Beesley said was not mystical or vague but very direct really, let me repeat he said ""most of the same high AOA manoeuvres as the Raptor" which really isn't to vague at all. It means what it says and it says the F-35 will pull most of the high AOA the F-22 can. If anything it is you who does not understand how to read and comprehend what they are reading, it couldn't be anymore straight forward!

One more time just incase you didn't read it properly "most of the same high AOA manoeuvres as the Raptor"

shep1978 wrote:

Oh dear, getting personel again I see.
You say that I "lack any comprehension of the matter and thereby swallow vague claims" yet you say you don't question Beesleys claims which are the very same claims i'm suppossedly swallowing down with no comprehension!

You missed the "make up stories out of them" part and it's obvious why.

Quote:

What Beesley said was not mystical or vague but very direct really, let me repeat he said ""most of the same high AOA manoeuvres as the Raptor" which really isn't to vague at all. It means what it says and it says the F-35 will pull most of the high AOA the F-22 can. If anything it is you who does not understand how to read and comprehend what they are reading, it couldn't be anymore straight forward!

Apparently to vague for you to tell me which manoeuvers these are and with what AoA the aircraft is flying. Not that I expected to get an accurate answer, no one will give it wether he can or not, in your case I know you can't.
The fact is, like it or not and I know you don't like it and therefore dismiss it as usual, is that the F-35 can't copy the F-22's TVC enabled manoeuvers. It will most likely match those the F-22 can fly on grounds of its aerodynamics and that's it. That doesn't mean its bad or inferior to the Typhoon actually. But there are clear limitations, the F-35 isn't going to break physical laws. And if you seriously believe that the F-35 is going to be able to copy or match the Raptors TVC enabled high AoA manoeuvers there is nothing wrong with telling you that you have no clue.

Scorpion82 wrote:

You missed the "make up stories out of them" part and it's obvious why.

You're quite clearly drunk as nowhere did I "make up stories about them" (whoever 'them' is)
Wait tilll your hangover clears and you've sobered up then re-read my posts.

Oh btw, its not actually me but a guy with 5000 flight hours and years of experience who says it can match most of the F-22's mauverers and he holds 5000 times more weight behind his assesment than you do kiddo. As a quick analogy I feel In all honesty that i'm talking to a 5 year old who thinks he knows more about astrophysics than a qualified astrophysicist who works in that area for a living.

Goodnight, sleep tight.

The point being that "match most of the F-22's maneuvers" is more than a little vague... and indeed, if it can do so, you have to wonder why they designed the F-22 with a lower wing loading, higher T/W ratio, and VT.

underhill, elsewhere on this or similar threads on this forum the statement has been made that with the better technology for the JSF it was not necessary to put the aircraft at risk at high AoA because it did not need to 'point and shoot'. Apparently when F-22 was designed it did not have these avionics advantages (to be brief).

underhill wrote:

The point being that "match most of the F-22's maneuvers" is more than a little vague... and indeed, if it can do so, you have to wonder why they designed the F-22 with a lower wing loading, higher T/W ratio, and VT.

"match most of the F-22's maneuvers"

Dictionary definitions are quite clearly needed for you and Scorpion82 so here goes:
According to http://www.thefreedictionary.com

Match= One that is able to compete equally with another
Most = Superlative of many, much. (self explanatory)
maneuver = A controlled change in movement or direction of a moving vehicle or vessel, as in the flight path of an aircraft.

So, by that we can be assert the F-35 should be able to compete with the F-22 in its ability to maneuver in most of its AOA pulling ability.

I do hope you might now understand what Beesleys statement meant now the quote has been broken down word for word but i get the feeling you'll still try and twist it and claim it to be "vague" statement which couldn't be futher from the truth.

BTW Underhill, i'd have thought you'd have learnt by now wing loading and TVC is are the be all and end all of maneuvering ability.

spazsinbad wrote:

underhill, elsewhere on this or similar threads on this forum the statement has been made that with the better technology for the JSF it was not necessary to put the aircraft at risk at high AoA because it did not need to 'point and shoot'. Apparently when F-22 was designed it did not have these avionics advantages (to be brief).

That's of course true, but the point is another one. We discuss physical limitations, which some people here encounter with sheer ignorance and stupidy.

Still in insult mode i see, how cute. Anyway, twist and throw insults it all you want kid but the bottom line is the F-35 should be able "match most of the F-22's maneuvers" as stated by a test pilot with over 5000 hours under his belt.
So, who are we to believe? You who is a keyboard warrior with no service experience or flying hours under his belt with nothing more than a basic understanding of aircraft or Mr Beesley, a test pilot with 5000 hours flying time under his belt. I think anyone reading this knows the answer.
Here is Mr Beeselys Bography:
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:HAIa ... &gl=uk
Care to post yours?

You're out of your depth mate.

shep1978 wrote:

Still in insult mode i see, how cute. Anyway, twist and throw insults it all you want kid but the bottom line is the F-35 should be able "match most of the F-22's maneuvers" as stated by a test pilot with over 5000 hours under his belt.
So, who are we to believe? You who is a keyboard warrior with no service experience or flying hours under his belt with nothing more than a basic understanding of aircraft or Mr Beesley, a test pilot with 5000 hours flying time under his belt. I think anyone reading this knows the answer.
Here is Mr Beeselys Bography:
http://66.102.9.132/search?q=cache:HAIa ... &gl=uk
Care to post yours?

You're out of your depth mate.

Sorry but I'm done with you. You deserve no further time and responses as I have wasted more than enough with you. Keep happy with your fanboy sh!t and low level brabbling. A monkey can repost stuff, I haven't seen you doing much else except of that. And I don't care what you think about me either, I'm not prolifierating through my back grounds, but through the content of my post which is much more important. There are way to many people out their claiming "I'm this or that so you must believe me".

should I join the RAF and fly eurofighters or the navy and fly f-35's ( when im old enogh which would mean that the UK might have the new carriers and f-35's hopefully). I like the idea of flying on and off carriers and I like both planes im joining the aircadets but right now I like the navy carier flying more but cant decide so which one is the better choice navy or airforce?

I was basic trained by the RAAF to fly A4G Skyhawks in the RAN FAA about 45 years ago now but even today these stories ring true:

http://tailhook.org/USN%20USAF.html
&
http://www.squidoo.com/NavyFighterPilot
&
Perhaps more specifically to your situation in UK you cannot go past this advice:
http://www.phoenixthinktank.org/?p=285

Another one: http://www.phoenixthinktank.org/?p=165

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon