Forum: F-35 Lightning II

The question of this topic might not have the confirmed answer until post-2015 ~ The time that DACT will begin between EF-2000 of RAF and F-35 of RN.

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Andy, thanks for posting the radar information.

Enjoyed the latest chitchat. I think any scenario that has an F-35 operating on it own without AWACS totally misses the point. It's highly networked enabled and that's so it can operate in a network and not go dicking around on its lonesome. And secondly it's being built down to a price so you can afford two of them for every Typhoon. So convince me that twice as many F-35's in a network with offboard data from AWACS etc. on theor way to bomb the heck out of a high value target would loose to a handful of Typhoons. Because that's the real picture and not some one on one WW1 type dogfight.

Wouldn't suprise me to see Germany become another JSF/Typhoon user. More the merrier says I. Horses for courses.

Sorry I missed toan's post. I'm betting on the RN. No better fighter pilots in any air force in any country. Hope they're still around then.

At the end of the year Turkey will make her decision on JSF or Typhoon and the numbers she will purchase.. My opinion is that they will select at first a number likeky 80-100 F-35 and a second order will take place for Eurofighters tranhce 3 about 40-60..From the other side of the Aegean i think there is a decision kind of "wait to see their move and then make ours"..Maybe 40-60 Eurofighers tranche 2 or 3 (which means that a desicion will take place place at the end of the decade if Greece goes for tranche 3) and a later order for JSF for about 40-60 airframes between 2013 to 2015..A mixed force including F35 for bombing missions and EFA Trance 3 for air superiority is an excellent combination.. Oh the radar info was given from Andy gives us the potential to compare some of the most critical parts between these fine aircrafts..

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Enjoyed the latest chitchat. I think any scenario that has an F-35 operating on it own without AWACS totally misses the point. It's highly networked enabled and that's so it can operate in a network and not go dicking around on its lonesome. And secondly it's being built down to a price so you can afford two of them for every Typhoon. So convince me that twice as many F-35's in a network with offboard data from AWACS etc. on theor way to bomb the heck out of a high value target would loose to a handful of Typhoons. Because that's the real picture and not some one on one WW1 type dogfight.

Well he was on about a one-on-one scenario so I gave him that scenario Wink

Although my european one is perfectly valid as it exemplifies most European nations standard alert aircraft procedures... including constant AWACs cover for some nations (Belgium/Holland/Germany = NATO E-3 fleet; France = E-3F fleet; UK = E-3D fleet).

ie. RAF..
4 aircraft on Alert at RAF Leuchers, Scotland. 4 aircraft on Alert at RAF Coningsby, Lincolnshire. 2 aircraft at each base on 10/15min alert... the other 2 on 30min alert. 1 AWACs constantly airbourne.

- If the 15min birds are launched the 30min aircraft are usually prepped and put on 10min alert in order to maintain coverage/alert status once the first wave RTB and a re-readied.
- At weekends, if both birds go up or one aborts take-off with a problem (I have seen this happen) then the airbourne aircraft is not permitted to land until there is another aircraft on 10/15min alert on the ground.

Andy

EDIT:
Also thinking about it, going on the radar figures.... IF you are a nation that doesn't really possess an AWACs component (ie. Turkey) facing a nation that does (ie. Greece, with SAAB Eyrie) and posses F-35, then the Typhoon Tranche 3 is the more sensible choice for air defence for the none-awacs nation... the CAESAR will be able to detect the inbound F-35s; sure they'll be seen first but CAESAR will see the F-35s sooner than another F-35 will. That little bit of extra range gives you a little more time to turn away/avoid a BVR missile launch... and if armed with Meteor especially... as soon as you detect them, fire and then run away.

Gentlemen, we can compare length all day. It still doesn't answer the question at hand. Which is better for the country in questions defense? Frankly, the plane needs to fit with the countries defense plan. That is more important than which plane can kick the others butt under some narrow set of conditions we're defining. A package of Typhoons and F-35s would be friggin dandy, but few (only one I think) country will have that. In some cases, the F-35 will be better (especially if LM gets their heads out of their @$$es on this one). The F-35 needs two things to be able to keep up with basically everything out there and whoop its butt (Raptor excluded). 1) Internal carriage of HOBS heaters. 2) stealthy pods for outboard stores. This would allow more carriage of weapons without significantly compromising stealth. I heard something about it for the 22 (mentioned in passing). That would turn the thing into the missile truck it would need to be for the heavy AD role.

I'm just curious, how many missiles do Vipers carry on AD mission?

The supercruise ability of EFA is questioned in that production stage...Any info on that??

LordOfBunnies wrote:

A package of Typhoons and F-35s would be friggin dandy, but few (only one I think) country will have that. .

Britain and Italy are the definate joint operators... Turkey and possibly Saudi Arabia being the other two.

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I'm just curious, how many missiles do Vipers carry on AD mission?

6 if i remember rightly, either all slammers or 4 slammer and 2 winders.

The Typhoon has been quoted to be able to supercruise at Mach 1.25+ with a combat warload on board. Thats all the info officially released on its supercruise capabilities.

Andy

There are two sceanrios:

1. F-35 is as stealthy as advertised. It might get the first shot but Typhoons DASS and its maneuvrebility should trick the AMRAAM. F-35 has to stay on target until the active seeker finds the Typhoon 10km away. Doing this F-35 gives away its position and is therby attacked by Meteor missles.
F-35 con only opt for a lucky shot using AMRAAM, in terms of acceleration, top speed and turning Typhoon has the edge.

2. F-35 can be detected some 50km away
In a BVR shootout both launch their missles an have to evade enemies missle. Again F-35 needs to avoid dogfight. IRIS-Ts range is supposed to be a bit wider than AIM-9X, ASRAM plus it should be more maneuvrable.

This is pretty much sting thinking I know. So my educated guess is typhoon wins 2:1

not sure for the ratio 2/1 in EFA favour but seems that the combination CAESAR, METEOR is deadly

So Checksix, you assume that Typhoon can't be shot down by a BVR missile so you conclude it's invincible? Brilliant analysis.

thanks Guys, I didnt know that much about F35 and Typhoon, clearly this discussion has helped broaden my horizons Smile

I fly f16 for TuAf, personally I would rather convert to F35 than Typhoon, reasons being that it could be easier to transition . but I d love to fly Typhoon too. I didnt know that we were gonna get Typhoons. however, my guess is that we might actually get it with our politicians sucking up to EU all the time , which further demeans the cause. looking forward to flying both,

fly safe and be the best, everyone

If you looking for thrills that's a totally different question - Typhoon hands down winner.

In combat too Razz

The only event where the JSF has a chance at beating the Typhoon is when the JSF has its cannons loaded or a bomb in its bay and the Typhoons on the runway Smile

man you guys are funny, sure you can argue the merits of the typhoon, but the first operational jsf hasnt even been built yet, so how you can say anything about its capabilities when a finished operational aircraft hasnt even been produced yet...its all theoretical at this point. All of that being said, after flying the jsf sim and seeing the typhoon in action, I'd say that people are overestimating the typhoons abilities and underestimating the jsf's "theoretical" capabilities...

Forum: F-35 Lightning II

F-35 JSF vs Eurofighter Typhoon