Forum: F-16 News

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

I'm getting off guys. I hope my compatriots and my neighbours behave. Regrettably I haven't in some cases.
My utter respects to fighter pilots of HAF & TuAF. God bless the dead.

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Salladin wrote:

Please cite your laws that says all aircraft needs the inform FIR center. My sources say military aircraft does not need to care about FIR at all.

Its really amusing to see our Turkish friends rely on what they can find on a Google search as their arguments... FYI Turkey submmited flight plans for years, Official Turkish Aeronautical Charts showed the Greek National Airspace to its 10NM, etc etc... How on earth can you ignore the fact that you cannot fly in civilian air corridors whenever you like without informing anyone?

Does the term "due regard" ring a bell?

Since you apparently rely on a bad translation in a Greek site, let me inform you that the original Greek version of the article does not say what you underlined in red...:
http://news.kathimerini.gr/4dcgi/_w_art ... 006_185396
Thats the article printed in the newspaper... Obviously the lady that wrote it and/or translated it in English did not bother to doublecheck what she wrote in English...

TurkishViper wrote:

Facts:
1. The flight was a planned flight and it was declared to NATO via CAOC-6.

What does CAOC6 have to do with controlling air traffic inside the Athens FIR? What were THK F-16's doing in FL270??? What prevents you from calling Athens Cotntrol and letting them know where are you going so that civilian airliners are not put in harms way???

Not very professional I'm afraid...

Quote:

2. The incident took place in an international airspace. And contrary to what is said by Greeks, it wasn't in Aegean Sea but it was in East Mediterenian Sea. (Pay attention to the coordinates!)

How did the THK get from Dalaman to the "coordinates"? Lets imagine for a moment that the radar plots for this flight did not pass inside National Greek Airspace as the RAP in Naples showed, just how many hunderds of waypoints do you have to plot in order to avoid flying directly over Greek islands in order to get there?

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3. The route never violated the Greek airspace, it was 35NM from Rhodes Island and 20NM from Karpathos Island.

Thats the crash point, how many minutes did the flight last? Did the planes just "beamed down" there?

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4. There was no dogfight whatsoever. They were flying like an airline, straight ahead with their route even Greek F-16s were intercepting them. The max G in the HUD was 2.8 when the incident happened. This explains everything.

Was there a dogfight a few minutes before? Does the "jetblast" technique ring a bell maybe? What does ICAO say must happen when an unidentified target is intercepted? You know, hand signals, wings tipped etc etc... Remember now? Even if the Greek Airspace was 1 meter long, this would still mean you had to inform Athens Control for your flight...

Quote:

5. Greek Capt. was coming closer with a high VC (closure) to Turkish Pilot and he opened his speedbreakes right before the collision, so Turkish Pilot thought he would stop, so he stopped looking to him, then he collided. He collided from right aft of the aircraft. He broke the ICAO rule of 1000' bubble while intercepting.

How many thousands of times Turkish fighters have broken the 1000ft bubble? And exactly what are the interception rules that ICAO specifically describes?
No, its not telepathy...

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7. Turkish wingman stayed there and started the SAR by complying with RESCAP procedures, whereas Greek wingman flew away and waited 30NM west of Crete.

Correct, he was ordered to do so.

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9. Greek SAR team came first and offered to take him from the ship. He refused to go with them since he knew Turkish SAR team would be on their way to save him. And Turkish team came couple of minutes later.

21 minutes later. The ship Captain has confirmed in writing that he carried a P9 sidearm? Why THK pilots carry sidearms in a ..."training" flight? This was not Kirkuk or Dyiarbakir you know...

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My opinion:
1. This incident happened because Greek Captain violated the rules. As a Turkish F-16 pilot I flew many many times over Aegen and Mediterenian Sea. I came across with Greeks each time and I know how they react to our flights. In 1996 they shot down one of our F-16 with Magic-II and since then I've always assumed they can do anything. And this incident is like a proof to my assumption. I know nobody would want to collide his aircraft but breaking the rules leads to unwanted accidents.

Claiming that only the Greek pilots "break the rules" is not only childish, its just not true... Try again...

Quote:

2. As long as Greeks keep using the word "enosis" and naming Istanbul as "constantinapolis (capital of Greece)", there will be certainly some issues between Turkey and Greece.

Aaa, now this explains many things... And you are supposed to be a NATO pilot? Well done! BTW the Kurds are your BIG problem now,so you should worry about them. Don't let yourself be distracted with "rule breaking Greeks that want 'enosis'"... Rolling Eyes

Fly safe and think twice on your next armed photo mission to Crete...

hardcore "Nationalists" are in both sides. I trully believe that both turks and greeks see them as an embarassment and they do not under any circumstances consider them close to any majority in way of thinking. That about the flag and few hot comments in the thread.
As for the incident it shouldn't turn out even to who ir right or wrong overall in the Aegean. There are alot of things that we dont know, or thing we know because somebody told us. I believe that both have their share of faults, who more and who less it just doesnt matter here and it shouldnt matter anymore Anyway.

So we stick back to the accident. The mission to find the pilot is still taking place and it will for at least 48 hours. The wrecks are in depth of 1400meters. The Blk.52+ has a sound beacon (UBL) that turns on in case of contact with the water and they are trying to locate the sound. Now, my guess is that since it exploded in such an altitude there must be pieces in a wide area and i find it kinda hard to believe it would still work.. It has been some time since the accident anyway.

Dear Fantasma337
Read this carefully,

This flight was planned and reported to NATO before training flight took place. In addition incident (i can't call it accident) happened in International flight zone according to the Turkish Air force. Neither of us could prove where excatly it had happened. If you have 100% sure and prove then I will have owe you an apology. Secondly, what the heck Greek heros trying to do by intercepting Turkish war-planes? If really they were flighing over Greek air - space why the hell on the world Greek pilots did NOT shoot them down, nor did NOT fire SS-300 (ground to air) missiles, come on get real. I assure you, Greeks would have shot down those Turkish planes as it occured 1996. About sidearms, I believe, they have to carry all the time since 1996 shot down. You reckon, Turkish pilots count Greeks pilots are friendly, even in a mock fight, come on again, get real. Additional information, No one to blame for the incident, according to my source (a reliable one, not google search) both planes were flighing in to each other at a speed of sound (340m/s) as they approached one another expected who did not have the guts and would pull over first. Thanks to Turkish wingsmen's insist Turkish pilot did eject 2.3/4 seconds before while Greek pilot (r.i.p) did not. No wing tips hit each other or anything else happened as revealed on fairy news.

About Kurds, what Kurds, you assume they will be given authority over Kerkuk and Musul (northern Iraq) lol, as long as Turkish army remains this will only be a dream for Kurds. Bytheway, there are evidences that Greek Government support and training Kurdish terorrists, if you want to right something about mention these realities too. No matter who support Kurds or hand over them guns, Turkey is a country will never ever divided nor surrender these kind of threats.

In the end, you should have objections upon what I wrote down here but I do not care. Looking forward for another action over Aegean sea. This time it will NOT be like this, it will not be like this.

Alex/ UK

I have been reading the forum quite some time now. I couldn't stop myself to express my feelings about this incident / accident.

Bushmaster wrote:

Let me clarify. You stay on your side!

When there is an accident happens on the international airspace, you don't tell people to stay on their side... This incident is clearly an accident caused by HAF pilot . You are trying to bring the subject to why TuAF AC was there etc.
this doesn't justify the fact that one pilot hits the other one behind and below. Big No No

Bushmaster wrote:

You are taking things to personal level on this forum, this is an abuse of the rules. You are attacking people and then acting like nothing has happened..., yet you continue this behavior. Not that I really care, you are drawing an incredibly suitable "Turkish" image the rest of the modern civilized nations to recognize. EU? I hope not with the likes of you. Otto must be the abb. for Ottoman!

You have pretty good Turkish to know the difference between "bustmaster" and "pustmaster" and to accept that as an insult yes you are right butttt when you start talking about taking things to personal level bla bla.. you do the same.. what is the suitable "Turkish" image?
Doh

Last edited by dkarko on May 27, 2006 - 02:35 AM; edited 1 time in total

the 1996 shot down is not an isolated incident, something had happened not a long time before that.
Seriously now firing a missile could cause a real crisis. Something like the series of events above (inversed). Just see what mayhem this accident caused no matter the efforts to be calm. Nobody wants that.

About the crash, taking into account the games of the pilots when they meet it has some ground. Definately we cannot completely stand on what HAF and TuAF officially say thats for sure.

by the way to my knowledge both TuAF and HAF don't have control over f-16's software, and since they participate in NATO. f-16's belong to these AF see each other as a friendly plane on the radar. Exclamation

!!! But again they could be recognised by ground right?

Fantasma337 wrote:

Fly safe and think twice on your next armed photo mission to Crete...

You are right. This incident proved that there is a chance you could get hit from behind. I hope there wont be a retaliation. Because you know what will happen if TuAF decides to that.

There are some countries out there they protect their sky with a joined force. together.

Would this be possible over the Agean Sea??

redprof wrote:

by the way to my knowledge both TuAF and HAF don't have control over f-16's software, and since they participate in NATO. f-16's belong to these AF see each other as a friendly plane on the radar. Exclamation

To the best of my knowledge, Turkey has the source code for its planes. In fact they modifyied them to identify F-15's as the enemy for Red Flag in 98. It is said that one of the Turkish aggressor shoot down several F-15s with out getting killed thanks to this update. There is a patch to commorate this event ("Tango-1 never dies") which can be found at http://www.sgoktun.com/F16.htm

Robust or Orko_8 can give more details.

bozz wrote:

Bushmaster,
In Tigermeet everybody has tiger schemes painted on. They all copied it from tigers not Americans. Excuse me for the irony man, but I couldn't help it.

I know man, I was pulling some legs, though 79th FS "Tiger" scheme that was done in 1997 seems to be somewhat replicated in the TuAF scheme.

orko_8 wrote:

Uh-oh... Wrong target, not even close...

Umm, it was Mr. 191cobra pilot wannabe posted on here he saw the VTR of the wingman and indeed talked to this wingman, what other VTR recording are you talking about? Any of these hi-speed aviators posting these videos here???

saladin wrote:

To the best of my knowledge, Turkey has the source code for its planes. In fact they modifyied them to identify F-15's as the enemy for Red Flag in 98.

I'd love to see some more detail on this, especially with the ongoing JSF and attack helicopter debates...

cheers,

mbg

saladin wrote:

Bushmaster,
Apperantly your own newpapers agree with 191cobra.. Look at the story there, Turkish pilot is not at fault and the incident happened just like 191cobra described. I think you owe an apology.

I don't owe him an apology, the article you posted which belongs to a Greek source, does NOT blame the Greek pilot either, and they put him in a position where he is performing HIS DUTY. Mr. 191 F-16 pilot's scenario DOES NOT describe the fact that "The Turkish F-16 attempted to block the Greek jet, at which point Captain Costas Iliakis accelerated to get closer to the photoreconnaissance plane" ... I don't mess around with people if they come forward honestly.

TurkishViper wrote:

Hi to all!

I've been reading the comments for 3 days and I wanted to clarify this issue as there is a misconception going on around here.

I myself a Turkish Viper pilot and I am proud to be one of the most important guys protecting my country. I know every single detail about this collision incident as I talked to Turkish Pilot and his wingman personally, and I watched his wingman's VTR several times.

Facts:
1. The flight was a planned flight and it was declared to NATO via CAOC-6.

2. The incident took place in an international airspace. And contrary to what is said by Greeks, it wasn't in Aegean Sea but it was in East Mediterenian Sea. (Pay attention to the coordinates!)

3. The route never violated the Greek airspace, it was 35NM from Rhodes Island and 20NM from Karpathos Island.

4. There was no dogfight whatsoever. They were flying like an airline, straight ahead with their route even Greek F-16s were intercepting them. The max G in the HUD was 2.8 when the incident happened. This explains everything.

5. Greek Capt. was coming closer with a high VC (closure) to Turkish Pilot and he opened his speedbreakes right before the collision, so Turkish Pilot thought he would stop, so he stopped looking to him, then he collided. He collided from right aft of the aircraft. He broke the ICAO rule of 1000' bubble while intercepting.

6. Greek F-16 burst into thousands pieces and Turkish F-16 was divided into 2 parts. Turkish pilot succesfully ejected couple of seconds later.

7. Turkish wingman stayed there and started the SAR by complying with RESCAP procedures, whereas Greek wingman flew away and waited 30NM west of Crete.

8. Ejected Turkish pilot was saved by Gas Century ship and he tried to swim to the ship,which was 100meters away, with his mae-west on. Red marks on his neck is due to mae-west scratching while swimming.

9. Greek SAR team came first and offered to take him from the ship. He refused to go with them since he knew Turkish SAR team would be on their way to save him. And Turkish team came couple of minutes later.

10. He didnt even say a word to Greek SAR team and told his thoghts to the captain of the ship. Captain conveyed them to Greeks. Therefore, there was no challenge nor gun threat to any Greek by him.

11. Turkish SAR team took him from the ship and took him to Turkish hospital by chopper.

My opinion:
1. This incident happened because Greek Captain violated the rules. As a Turkish F-16 pilot I flew many many times over Aegen and Mediterenian Sea. I came across with Greeks each time and I know how they react to our flights. In 1996 they shot down one of our F-16 with Magic-II and since then I've always assumed they can do anything. And this incident is like a proof to my assumption. I know nobody would want to collide his aircraft but breaking the rules leads to unwanted accidents.

2. As long as Greeks keep using the word "enosis" and naming Istanbul as "constantinapolis (capital of Greece)", there will be certainly some issues between Turkey and Greece.

Cheers...

OH MY GOODNESS, HERE IS ANOTHER ONE!

I guess anyone who drops by here with the greeting; "Hi all, I am a viper pilot, you all don't know nothing so STFU!" is believed to be the REAL DEAL!

Wake up people. Look at this dude's post, and compare it to another pilot wannabe 191cobra's post a few pages back. You will see the indentical account. I bet you anything they are the same person posting under different screennames.

Isn't that ironic that we had NONE HAF pilots whatsoever arguing here about the incident? Nor any other NATO pilots. But here in 2 days we have 2 Turkish pilots explaining us the situation from what they have seen from the infamous VTR tape, proving they have done nothing wrong.

Noone is insisting on a "dogfight" in this incident, that is established, however these two "pilot" characters desperately trying to show that there was none, we already know that. Both characters accusing that there are LOTS of misinformation pouring in, going around. Furthermore, he gallantly, being a Turkish officer, stoops himself in politics and talks about "enosis". Who here said ONE WORD about enosis so far? Constantinople? Get a grip and remember you are an officer, NOT!

My deepest requests from the admin would be starting an IDENTIFICATION process where ACTUAL fighter pilots should carry a sign in their profile or over their screenname, after they filled out some detailed information during registration about their careers. If not, every smartarse will drop by claiming to be a "Turkish" viper pilot to blame the Greek side.

Forum: F-16 News

HAF F-16 - TuAF F-16 collide mid-air