Forum: F-16 News

Objective Greek Media? What do you think of the story that Turkish pilot supposedly pulled his gun to threaten Greek rescuers?

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Hi to all!

I've been reading the comments for 3 days and I wanted to clarify this issue as there is a misconception going on around here.

I myself a Turkish Viper pilot and I am proud to be one of the most important guys protecting my country. I know every single detail about this collision incident as I talked to Turkish Pilot and his wingman personally, and I watched his wingman's VTR several times.

Facts:
1. The flight was a planned flight and it was declared to NATO via CAOC-6.

2. The incident took place in an international airspace. And contrary to what is said by Greeks, it wasn't in Aegean Sea but it was in East Mediterenian Sea. (Pay attention to the coordinates!)

3. The route never violated the Greek airspace, it was 35NM from Rhodes Island and 20NM from Karpathos Island.

4. There was no dogfight whatsoever. They were flying like an airline, straight ahead with their route even Greek F-16s were intercepting them. The max G in the HUD was 2.8 when the incident happened. This explains everything.

5. Greek Capt. was coming closer with a high VC (closure) to Turkish Pilot and he opened his speedbreakes right before the collision, so Turkish Pilot thought he would stop, so he stopped looking to him, then he collided. He collided from right aft of the aircraft. He broke the ICAO rule of 1000' bubble while intercepting.

6. Greek F-16 burst into thousands pieces and Turkish F-16 was divided into 2 parts. Turkish pilot succesfully ejected couple of seconds later.

7. Turkish wingman stayed there and started the SAR by complying with RESCAP procedures, whereas Greek wingman flew away and waited 30NM west of Crete.

8. Ejected Turkish pilot was saved by Gas Century ship and he tried to swim to the ship,which was 100meters away, with his mae-west on. Red marks on his neck is due to mae-west scratching while swimming.

9. Greek SAR team came first and offered to take him from the ship. He refused to go with them since he knew Turkish SAR team would be on their way to save him. And Turkish team came couple of minutes later.

10. He didnt even say a word to Greek SAR team and told his thoghts to the captain of the ship. Captain conveyed them to Greeks. Therefore, there was no challenge nor gun threat to any Greek by him.

11. Turkish SAR team took him from the ship and took him to Turkish hospital by chopper.

My opinion:
1. This incident happened because Greek Captain violated the rules. As a Turkish F-16 pilot I flew many many times over Aegen and Mediterenian Sea. I came across with Greeks each time and I know how they react to our flights. In 1996 they shot down one of our F-16 with Magic-II and since then I've always assumed they can do anything. And this incident is like a proof to my assumption. I know nobody would want to collide his aircraft but breaking the rules leads to unwanted accidents.

2. As long as Greeks keep using the word "enosis" and naming Istanbul as "constantinapolis (capital of Greece)", there will be certainly some issues between Turkey and Greece.

Cheers...

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

Dear Robust,

I heard the tape of the SAR crews ...

... however Greece does not wish more tensions. He (the pilot) was not willing to accept help from Greeks, isn't this normal after such an incident? Could his orders be not to accept this help in such an instance? Why do TuAF carry sidearms the last couple of years when overflying the Aegean?
Look, I mean no degradation for the pilot. The SAR thing has significant political implications and that is what this is all about. If you wish I will post my e-mail in my profile and we can talk.

I have misbehaved myself in this forum and I don't like it.

The sides have handled it as a draw and this is an important positive step.

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

My respects to Turkish Viper

If one tries to comment on the latter statement of yours will fall way out of topic. It is challenging to ask what schools and AF academy teaches about the Greeks. I already knew TuAF is brave and motivated.
Many thanks for the info. Nevertheless it was already out there (from Greek sources too) without your subjective hue for the events, though.

The questions I would sincerelly like to ask you you wouldn't answer and frankly I would not believe if you did, since such matters are not to be disclosed any way.

Thus, safe flying and be well.

EDIT: linguistically speaking, that is regarding thee way words are formed and sound in languages, "Istanbul" is Turkish for Constantinoupoli just like Izmir is for Smirni etc. The principal phonems are the same . i.e. London is Londhino in Greek, Madrid is Madhriti. Athina is Aten in Turkish. It's curious how this can be a cause for hostility. Implying that Greece wants to invade Turkey is way off reality (polite expression) and 80 years off time.

2nd EDIT (just noticed): Contsantinoupolis means "The City of Constantine" (Counstantinou - polis, the Byzantine emperor who build the city) not "the capital of Greece" that would sound like Protevousatisellados which is a very funny name for a city). An other hint on the quality of education I'm afraid.

Thanks Turkish Viper...It is good to know that someone is always watching our borders...Gook luck and be safe in the future....

Bozz,

The problem is historical for Greeks....Istanbul was the capital of Greeks or Orthodox religion fro thousand of years until 1453..Istanbul may not be the capital of the Greeks now but still is the capital of the your religion...Am I right? Since the head of the Christian Orthodox religous leader stays Istanbul, and there are discussions of opening orthodox religous schools in Istanbul..The value of Istanbul to Greeks never dimishes...It is like Mecca for Muslims...Greeks use the word Costantinapol not just for linguistically belongs to them, but use the word, Costantinapol, to indicate that "historically" Istanbul belongs to them...

Otto wrote:

greeklunatic: mate pls read about some economy stuff: as you prefer Turkey is not low-developed, I am afraid. check the net, Turkey's economy is the 17th largest in the world. I wonder what would greece do if it was not backed by EU financially all the time Very Happy

Dear Otto,
Haven't you heard about International Monetary Fund(IMF)? Shocked

There hasn't been a long time since Turkey begged for a loan of several billion US$. Shrug

By the way what is the per capita income in Turkey? Confused

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

ok Robust
Let's see:
1. History is there we cannot change it. The Hellenic Civilasation developed around the Aegean sea and later the Mediterranean and Asia, then came the Romans, the the Romans split and Eastern Empire was Hellenized, then came the Seltzuks,Manzikert, the westerners in 1204 later 1453 and Ottomans and 1821 and 1922 and 1974 and... so what?

2. There is not such thing as "Centre of religion" for us. If such might exist it would be Jerusalem.

3. The importance of The Patriarch and the existence of Orthodox Christian religious schools (the venerable Chalki) is more important for Turkey than it is for Greece. Modern turkey should be proud of what it inheritted from the Ottoman empire, among those the Ecumenical throne)

4. Greek Church is independent tied with a loose tradition with the Ecumenical Throne and the archbishop is not a very good friend of the Constantinople Patriarch (there are other Patriarchs, in Moscow(friendly, no), Rome(Pope-not a very good frient of Bartholomieu either), Antiochia, Jerusalem and Alexandria).

5. No one uses religious arguments in Greece except for a very few disturbed people.

7. The wars and expatriations (at least 40% of Greece's current population have direct ties with asia minor cities or Instanbul or northcentral Turkey) have caused long lasting resentment, but the idea of invading Turkey has not crossed anyones mind since the 20's. By the way Greeks have also roots around other Balkan countries, Egypt and the Mediterranean, (Greek populations were scaterred around their historical nests until the formation of modern Greek state).

8. Greek Foreign policy has consistently improved towards Turkey during the last years and we would like that acknowledged.

This is an interesting conversation but unfortunatelly out of topic. My mail will be on my profile. I look forward for your communication Robust.

Greets.

greeklunatic8 wrote:

People lets become rational Why does not everybody read the treaties and follow them. Tell a rational reason why Turkey should not keep this treaties and be the cause of the deaths of pilots.

It is easy. I wont repeat what I wrote and as I already said I wont get into reasons, otherwise this thread will enter a flame war. But for one, let me ask; How can someone stop buying arms, when his neighbor is pretty fast at it? (And of course a very nice looking, shiny, state of the art slogan is atteched at the back: "be the cause of the deaths of pilots" Laughing

I dont feel a need to answer this.

bozz wrote:

BTW IkeHigh, Greece has been the greatest supporter for Turkey's admission in the EU in recent years, a view which is widely shared among the Greek population.

Quote:

But Greek Prime Minister Costas Karamanlis said May 24 that the collision would be “taken into consideration” in the context of Turkey’s application to join the European Union.
”The accident of yesterday has to be a signal to Turkey to abandon such tactics that do not tally with its European perspectives,” Karamanlis said during a news conference at the annual conference of the OECD in Paris.

http://www.defensenews.com/story.php?F=1823356&C=europe

Now I guess for EU we should quit flying in international airspaces and pray air accidents such as this never happens, or no HAF aircraft comes crashing on ours... Now lets do away with cynism. The above statement of prime minster Karamanlis tells all I want to tell about the issue.

Bushmaster wrote:

From elementary school all the way up to college, history textbooks teach the Turkish youth "Yunan" (arabic words comes from Ionian, English Greek) is the enemy. In my opinion this is wrong and I refuse this statement since I have known many of them. The word "Ionian" gives a pretty good idea how long these guys had been "residing" in the region. It is clear by studying history that Greece is a peace-loving small country with no territorial ambitions whatsoever. They stepped on western Turkish coast in early 20's? Well, there is British finger in that. Get back to dogfighting now.

I said I dont need to delve into reasons as it will finally bring historical arguments for the peace of the forum. But I guess my neighbor does not share the same view about the matter. Now a psycological analysis, when I am acting like this my neighbor is acting the opposite, what would I think? Of course I will not trust your stated "good wills".

Anyway about what you wrote; We dont teach our kids in families or schools that Greece or Greeks is-are the enemy. Indeed we make TV series called "foreigner groom" and wed Turkish girls with Greek guys for the sake of Turkish-Greek peace. The only eneminess is about the war time, 1919-1922, what we call our "Independence War" and what you call "Asia Minor Campaign". Now, if I was in some raged mind, I would quickly start "Oh no, it is you who teach your citizens that we are barbarians and etc... from childhood" but I will not. Because these types of arguments will go on and on and on and on... So for the sake of well manners, I ask you once again, nicely, not to write statements that can turn into flame wars.

nearhos wrote:

Dear Otto, let's say that i agree you. Please answer this and let the other people judge what is really going on in this region of the globe: "You have 7 countries as neighbors, Bulgaria,Greece,Syria,Iran,Iraq,Armenia and Georgia.Name please one(un,uno,1) country that you have good relations with." Thank you in advance

I wont give out material after material about our relationships with the stated countries. We have our reasons, i.e. namely supporting of terrorism in our national borders can be said for almost all of them. I first want to ask, is it an ok behaviour to criticise another countries' international affairs in this forum? I dont know. It may be or may not be. If it is then let me ask you about your neighbors; Albania, FYROMacedonia and Turkiye. Now if I get into a counting thing like you, it will be too childish, i.e. "You have the most bad relations, no you have the most bad relations, etc..."

bozz wrote:

I heard the tape of the SAR crews ...

... however Greece does not wish more tensions. He (the pilot) was not willing to accept help from Greeks, isn't this normal after such an incident? Could his orders be not to accept this help in such an instance? Why do TuAF carry sidearms the last couple of years when overflying the Aegean?
Look, I mean no degradation for the pilot. The SAR thing has significant political implications and that is what this is all about. If you wish I will post my e-mail in my profile and we can talk.
I have misbehaved myself in this forum and I don't like it.

The sides have handled it as a draw and this is an important positive step.

Excuse me, but why do pilots carry sidearms??? Shocked

Is this a real question? We are talking about military units here not civilian pilot courses' Cessna airplanes and their crew. About rejecting help from Greek SAR, this is as normal as it can be, every crew would want to be rescued by his-her own countries' SAR team in international space, wouldnt they??? If it was you or us, we would have acted the same. Now this is the basis point and it alone is enough reason for our pilots' action. Continued; How would you react when another nations' aircraft viloates ICAO rules and comes closer than 1000 feet and then crashes into your plane? Would you take their help when your help was on the way? Gentlemen, military personel do get highly advanced training compared us civilians, in various matters. They take their national pride very seriously and they can give even their lives for the sake of it. This is true for not only for us but also for you and all the world. Our pilots' act of refusing help from another nation but waiting for his in such tension in international space, can only be praised. And not only from our side, he is a pilot and he shows how honorable pilots can be as a perfect example. He is a shining exaple of all military pilots of the world.

Bushmaster wrote:

you are drawing an incredibly suitable "Turkish" image the rest of the modern civilized nations to recognize. EU? I hope not with the likes of you. Otto must be the abb. for Ottoman!

HazF16 wrote:

that's exactly what i said to him earlier today but that part of my post got deleted. this kinda behaviour doesnt shed a good light on his country. not at all.

nearhos wrote:

Dear Otto,
Haven't you heard about International Monetary Fund(IMF)? There hasn't been a long time since Turkey begged for a loan of several billion US$. By the way what is the per capita income in Turkey?

Now should I generalise all Greek nation as childish and immature and bad imaged for these bad imaged posts? Guess not, it is not right. 1-3 person does not represent a nation.

Last edited by nearhos on May 26, 2006 - 11:24 PM; edited 2 times in total

IkeHigh wrote:

.

nearhos wrote:

Dear Otto, let's say that i agree you. Please answer this and let the other people judge what is really going on in this region of the globe: "You have 7 countries as neighbors, Bulgaria,Greece,Syria,Iran,Iraq,Armenia and Georgia.Name please one(un,uno,1) country that you have good relations with." Thank you in advance

I wont give out material after material about our relationships with the stated countries. We have our reasons, i.e. namely supporting of terrorism in our national borders can be said for almost all of them. I first want to ask, is it an ok behaviour to criticise another countries' international affairs in this forum? I dont know. It may be or may not be. If it is then let me ask you about your neighbors; Albania, FYROMacedonia and Turkiye. Now if I get into a counting thing like you, it will be too childish, i.e. "You have the most bad relations, no you have the most bad relations, etc..."

Despite the relations between Albania and Greece nobody can deny that there are more than 500.000 immigrants in Greece to whom has been given the opportunity to support their country financially by working here.As for FYROM ,the only difference is based on our sensitivity to something- the name Macedonia- which is part of our existence throughout time.

As for your opinion towards Greeks,who cares..........

p.s. which minority in Turkey was given the opportunity to survive let alone to develop?
I know, Greeks are savages...............

bozz wrote:

It is challenging to ask what schools and AF academy teaches about the Greeks.

Quote:

Vandals of Turkish flag sought
The Greek army said late on Saturday that it was ordering an investigation into how a Turkish flag was defaced and left in the room of Turkish officers who were visiting Greece last week, while the Greek and Turkish foreign ministers were trying to establish closer ties between the two armed forces.

In a statement, the army general staff called the incident, during which slogans were written on the flag, “regrettable” and pledged to track down the perpetrators and punish them severely.

The statement came as the Turkish Foreign Ministry and army demanded an apology for the incident, which they said occurred last Tuesday. The two visiting officers and five cadets, who had been invited to the Army Academy in Athens as part of a goodwill gesture, were ordered to return home on Wednesday.

As part of his fraught visit to Turkey last week, Foreign Minister Petros Molyviatis agreed to a series of confidence-boosting measures with his Turkish counterpart, Abdullah Gul, such as setting up a hotline between air force command centers and Greek lessons for Turkish officers and vice versa.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_1721108_18/04/2005_55327

I dont know what our academy teaches about greeks but I wonder what yours teach about turks Wink

It is actions like these that I am talking about that makes us not to trust your stated "good will". This is just a little example.

Nobody will attack Turkey especially Greece. Turkey 's problems are in the inside the PKK and etc.. About learning in schools about the Enemy as Turks and Greeks is a common problem thought Greece has made some improvement to the better I do not know about Turkey. As for being the cause of the death of the Greek pilot, if Turkey obeyed to the FIR then the Greek pilot will still be alive. About the relations of the two countries facts speak that Greece is overcoming the prohibitions and support the membership in the EU. First Greeks have invested about 6 billion US dollar in Turkey a country that has a very unstable economy. See National Bank of Greece and EUROBANK . Greece has in the last years supported the EU membership of Turkey. The comments of the prime Minister were a warning to Turkey but it does not change the Greek policy over the last six to eight years.

IkeHigh wrote:

bozz wrote:

It is challenging to ask what schools and AF academy teaches about the Greeks.

Quote:

Vandals of Turkish flag sought
The Greek army said late on Saturday that it was ordering an investigation into how a Turkish flag was defaced and left in the room of Turkish officers who were visiting Greece last week, while the Greek and Turkish foreign ministers were trying to establish closer ties between the two armed forces.

In a statement, the army general staff called the incident, during which slogans were written on the flag, “regrettable” and pledged to track down the perpetrators and punish them severely.

The statement came as the Turkish Foreign Ministry and army demanded an apology for the incident, which they said occurred last Tuesday. The two visiting officers and five cadets, who had been invited to the Army Academy in Athens as part of a goodwill gesture, were ordered to return home on Wednesday.

As part of his fraught visit to Turkey last week, Foreign Minister Petros Molyviatis agreed to a series of confidence-boosting measures with his Turkish counterpart, Abdullah Gul, such as setting up a hotline between air force command centers and Greek lessons for Turkish officers and vice versa.

http://www.ekathimerini.com/4dcgi/_w_articles_politics_1721108_18/04/2005_55327

I dont know what our academy teaches about greeks but I wonder what yours teach about turks Wink

It is actions like these that I am talking about that makes us not to trust your stated "good will". This is just a little example.

The Greek State has repeatedly made gestures of good will.Although it could stop Turkey's effort to join EU , and deny by veto the financial support of millions of Euros didn't do it.Instead of an improvement, we always hear about the patience that Greece and the other members of EU must show towards Turkish government who has the challenging mission to impose its will to the "bad" generals.Really, who governs Turkey?

eople lets do not talk about minorities because Turkey has a minority-majority in the south east about 10 to 15 millions thats about 21% of Turkey's population I believe (exculding Imbros Tenedos and other parts of Turkey).

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

I clearly and repeatedly said it is normal to wait for the TuAF Helo IkeHigh. Policy or not. (the principles of which in any case neither you, me nor AF pilots are aware of). The tapes were heard indeed, so what. They might have been misunderstood or not. What is wrong in any case,
With respect I have to tell you that the cadets were punished severely and I would apologise for this incident myself as a Greek. The way the miserable incident is portrayed in the paper you cite is indicative of our embarrassment. My respects to the flag.
All I stated was that I would like to know what official books write. However when I am accused for aggression today, 2006, with childish worn-out rhetorics like the statement no 2 of Turkish Viper, I have to tell you that I am somewhat taken off balance at least.

I see some of you do still intend to scratch political matters in an F-16 forum. I do not feel a need to answer the above statements coming from two people, it will just go on and on and on, but one question, why did you quoted the link I gave if you werent going to comment or say something about it?

Anyway, for tonight I will give out one more resource and end my part in the discussion, otherwise as I said it will go on and on and on.

An example of general "good will" of Greece;

Quote:

One minor setback in Greek-Turkish relations occurs is the strange affair involving Kurdish leader Obdullah Ocalan of the PKK (Kurdish Workers Party). After the government had declares it is not willing to offer him asylum he is secretly flown into Greece anyway, given a Cypriot passport and just as secretly shipped out. He surfaces at the Greek embassy in Nairobi. When he is asked to leave and told that he will be taken by plane to Amsterdam he is abducted by the Turkish secret police and flown back to Turkey for trial. The whole affair is an embarrassement for the Greek government and three ministers are forced to resign including outspoken and confrontational Foreign Minister Theodoros Pangalos.

http://www.ahistoryofgreece.com/papandreou-karamanlis2.htm

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