Forum: F-16 News

Thumbs up. I will give it a look.

Thanks

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Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

Pharmusty, a high-speed pass-by has indeed been a common tactic for forcing an opposing aircraft to abort. Given that Cpt. Iliakis had over 1500 hrs in the type, I suppose there could have been an additional factor in this case, maybe an unanticipated reaction by the TuAF a/c. However, scrambling and intercepting is not my line of work and all said from non-participants in such instances (including myself) are guesses, at best. In any case the thing is that the mechanics of the accident are more or less beside the point. Fighter pilots have an admirable but extremelly dangerous profession.

Unfortunatelly the last 8 (EDIT:1 Cool

months have not been good for HAF (two blk.30D's CFIG in formation -4 dead, RF4E engine-crash-ejected, M2K-engine-crash-1 dead, 6 pilots deceased counting Cpt. Iliakis) even though they were preceeded by a long (> 12 months) accident-free period. HAF blk50's have not had an accident since 1997 when they were delivered eventhough flying LANTIRN low level penetration as well as A-D, scramble duties etc. For TuAF this was the 24th F16 w/o since 1988 (240 airframes total), for HAF the 9th since 1989 (140 airframes).

Asif, the tigermeet 2005 TuAF art is impressive. I am very interested in operational and not airshow schemes. The US has a long tradition of such schemes, though by far the best looking are the IsraeliAF's

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

FANTASMA quotes "Miliet" newspaper.

The frigate mentioned was 10 miles off northern Crete when the interception begun 8 miles off Karpathos. It later moved towards the crash area. According to a civilian mariner participating in the rescue its captain was heard over common freq. indicating to the Phillipinese captain not to allow Greek SAR take hold of the TuAF pilot "in a military tone".

Hello to all participants. I 'm 23 from Greece.

When discussing, bear in mind two rules.

1. What do we know and what assumptions do we make?

2. What we would do in their shoes?

Avoid also cultivating false impressions.

1. Officially, S-300 system installed in Crete was purchased by Cyprus. Greece provides accommodation. We are known for our hospitality. Very Happy

2. S-300 was designed to face the most popular jet in NATO, F-16. What a coincidence, it is also the most popular in THK. When debating about whether to buy Patriot or S-300, the military press in Greece stated that the S-300 PMU-1 system holds a >80% effectiveness as F-16 "remedy".
3. Officially, Greece also bought the Patriot System.

Now, while someone reads the replies so far, he recognizes two schools of thoughts. The one, mostly shortsighted, goes by the exact implication of what the letters say. The other, with broader view, examines the reality - not the excuses, laws etc. So..

2 F-16 heading to a SAM site in Crete, fully armed, escorting RF-4.

International airspace. Ok, flying in international airspace, so none can blame us and when approaching our "target" it will be late for them to engage, we may have the chance to take some tourist photos violating national space. I shall not be surprised even if HAF does that too for turkish sites.

Now bear in mind the 2nd rule above. What THK would do in a similar case? What every Air Force in the world would do? Ok, that is the truth for those who seek for it - not miles, not kilometers, yards, feet, arms or fingers.

As far as the accident is concerned, it seems that both are to blame. There was no dogfight, but maneuvers due to the warnings (...) that resulted in the collision. The pilot of TuAF did not use his sidearm to threat anybody. The captain of the commercial ship asked for it, and the pilot gave it.

To be honest, as a Greek citizen, I am not in comfort when THK jets fly even in 30km radius over my head fully armed (in 2006, more advanced weapons than swords are used) - not because of the possibility of an intentional war, but due to the escalations events like this one could lead to. I assume that the same feelings apply for Turks too.

By the way, it is worthwhile to mention that when Turkey faces an internal crisis, "traffic" over the Aegean is increased for diffusion purposes. Policies to misguide the public are followed wherever in the world though.

At last but not least. It is evident in many fora and chatrooms that a lot of Turks talk about the "greek lake" thing. I first heard about this concept from a friend of mine, when we were both studying in the UK. He admitted that in Turkey, they are told that Greeks we are going for it. By all means, Greeks we have more serious and better things to work on. Fortunately the last 10 years, our country is growing fast, currently the rate is double the EU mean. Investments in telecoms, transportation, education, health, energy and tourist industry are in priority and hopefully, in 15-20 years time our economy will be comparable with economies in Scandinavian. As the rest Europeans, Greeks lagged behind, but finally we realized that military forces in modern economies are to protect people's efforts and not a means to feed our ego. It is a matter of a very few years time that military parades in Greece will cease.

Apart from the extremes, 1.5% of the population, who often come out to be less educated and narrow-sighted, none wishes for a war with Turkey that could lead Greece decades back. Definitely, Greece, being more developed, is more afraid of such a possibility - we just do not want the efforts made all these years go busted. That is why, the majority of Greeks support Turkey's entrance in the EU. Except from balanced armed forces, both handling huge investments would be even more difficult to come into a conflict. Finally, both developed, we hope to have the maturity to solve problems in a peaceful manner with mutual benefits. Moreover, as European citizens, Turks will enjoy plenty of benefits, e.g. they will pay 10 times less fees in the EU universities - I know this first-hand.

Do you really love Turkey? Spend money in education, not in arms. Greeks do not threat you any more - heart attacks, strokes, viruses and cancer do. Be prepared.

Hey guys,

I was just reading all your tail art posts (truly magnificent stuff by the way), and something came up:

The HAF applies a unique camouflage scheme on their aircraft (looks really nice on the F-16). What's this scheme called? What is the rational behind it? Why were the early A7Ds carrying a SEA type scheme and not this one?

I can't find the source right now, but I have also seen a "Aegean One" camouflage scheme (proposed perhaps, never seen it on an aircraft) on the Phantoms (merely all dark blue). What was that about? Why wasn't it opted? Does anybody have any info that they can share?

Thanks.

mbg

""Do you really love Turkey? Spend money in education, not in arms. Greeks do not threat you any more â€“ heart attacks, strokes, viruses and cancer do. Be prepared.""

Thank you, but as a native Turkish who has been feeding up all through my life with all the meat/kebap and high-calory meals Turkish cuisine can afford, I am already very well worried about my poor veins Smile

Presence of those, let's say, SCALP-EG's only make my cholesterol worse Smile

Maybe I must find another hobby + job for my own health, your post seriously made me reconsider it... By the way spending on education is more than military spending late years. Also checking the rank of major arm-buyers throughout the world would give some idea.

By the way I warmly and heartfully thank you for your post, since I have been witnessing a lot of warmongers / keyboard generals / aviation authority-wannabe's lately.

Last edited by dkarko on May 26, 2006 - 03:55 PM; edited 1 time in total

themis well said!

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

Clarification:
The sidearm-waving thing was supported by recordings of talks between the rescue crew of the SAR helo. The sidarm handing to the panamese's first officer isupported by the Phil. captain's report, who also states for him self that he is "disoriented and may report false". Strange way to conclude a formal report, it must be a Philipino thing (or the Japanese owner company's manouver). In any case it is natural the pilot's wish to board the Tu helo and reasonable.

Peace and prosperity is the way to go for everyone, themis. Applause

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

mbg wrote:

I was just reading all your tail art posts (truly magnificent stuff by the way), and something came up:

The HAF applies a unique camouflage scheme on their aircraft (looks really nice on the F-16). What's this scheme called? What is the rational behind it? Why were the early A7Ds carrying a SEA type scheme and not this one?

I can't find the source right now, but I have also seen a "Aegean One" camouflage scheme (proposed perhaps, never seen it on an aircraft) on the Phantoms (merely all dark blue). What was that about? Why wasn't it opted? Does anybody have any info that they can share?

The camo on F16's and F4ESRA's and PI2000's is called Aegean Ghost. Aegean one was the blu-gray monocrome scheme worn by Air Def. F4E's and M1CG's until late 90's early 2000. The rational of Aegean Ghost is: multirole over land and sea. The blue scheme is for Air Def. over sea.

First of all my sympathies go to greek side for their lost pilot. May he rest in peace. Just like everyone here my wish is something like this never happens again for the 3rd time.

Our greek friend Themis advise us of for better Turkiye we should quit arms buying mainly and use our money elsewhere. He also states the greek people's well intentions of Turkiye. I thank him for his kind remarks. About his ideas of Turkiye, now everyone has the right to think - say anything he-she wishes as long as it is not offending anyone. I respect his thoughts. Also it should be normal if I disagree him about that matter on the same basis.

Now; Spending money not on arms and spending it on other things; thats a really sweet dream, something highly utopic for us Turks. Unfortunatelly it is impossible when we cant see positive development of "good will" towards us from our neighbor. And I am not talking about "good will" in written statements or declarations, it is actions that matter. I wont start here a "you did this, no instead you did this" fight as we are all grown adults here who must behave and be clever enough that these types of arguments, even if you are right, will pollute the forum and will not give you anything other than a mark "flamer". After all what's happened has happened we cant change it.

After all this is an F-16 forum, and indeed this has been a bad month for this wonderfull aircraft. 4 losses in one day.

Quote:

Unfortunatelly the last 8 months have not been good for HAF (two blk.30D's CFIG in formation -4 dead,

This accident happened in October 2004, 19 months ago. The first major loss for HAF since then was the M2K that crashed last month. 18 months with no serious incidents is quite good I would think.

People lets become rational Why does not everybody read the treaties and follow them. Tell a rational reason why Turkey should not keep this treaties and be the cause of the deaths of pilots. Do you know how many billion dollars are invested in both militarily for what cause so that some politicians can argue over a couple miles in the see and the air (or play with them). I tell you why because our American allies need to sell weapons. The TuAF announced to buy 100-20 F-35 at cost of 100billion dollar(?) and vice versa. Imagine what this amount could do if it was invested in Turkey.

The fact is that the greek pilot is dead. What can you tell his wife and kid.

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

nbalian,
Sorry, it was a typo, I meant to write "18 months", HAF has had an impressive record for safety in recent years.

Edit: greeklunatic, 100 bilion would buy 300 Raptors and support. Turkey has wisely invested 100 million in JSF so far. Please refrain from mentioning the family of the deceased.

Last edited by Bushmaster78FS on May 26, 2006 - 06:01 PM; edited 1 time in total

Otto wrote:

bustmaster: whatever you say about the ownership of the Aegean, I tell you once more my sensitive friend, Aegean is owned by Greece, Turkey and international community, all three have rights on it

Let me clarify. You stay on your side! You don't come to other people's airspace unless permitted to do so. You file a flight plan, if you want to fly around, islands are GREEK, they have airspace over them. Simple. You are taking things to personal level on this forum, this is an abuse of the rules. You are attacking people and then acting like nothing has happened. You have been warned, your messages have been deleted, yet you continue this behavior. Not that I really care, you are drawing an incredibly suitable "Turkish" image the rest of the modern civilized nations to recognize. EU? I hope not with the likes of you. Otto must be the abb. for Ottoman!

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

BTW IkeHigh, Greece has been the greatest supporter for Turkey's admission in the EU in recent years, a view which is widely shared among the Greek population.

Forum: F-16 News

HAF F-16 - TuAF F-16 collide mid-air