Forum: F-16 News

Truly here is a wonderful idea! Demilitarization of the Greek islands... Does these defensive weapons make Turks angry? For example all Greek islands (figures not accurate but less or more is something like that) doesnt have more than 30.000 troops 200 to 300 MTB artillerry units, antiaircrafts, airports where aircrafts may airborn, ports etc...

You must calculate that these numbers are slashed to about 10 greek eastern islands from the north Samothrace till Kastellorizo..Across the Aegean a few miles away is the so called Aegean army. About 100.000 troops, marines, a massive fleet of landing vessels,huge numbers MBT, artillery, dozens of helicopters capable for air assaults, attack helicopters, several wings with F16s and F4E-2000 (MOST OF THESE AIRCRAFTS WESTERN AND CENTRAL TURKEY).. .and ok guys will pull our unit's back.. if you are frightened!

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Otto wrote:

BTW, sorry about the fact but Aegean sea is not a Greek lake and as long as we are here, it will not be. Aegean is a sea that is partially owned by Greece, Turkey and international community.

Who here claimed that Aegean is a Greek lake?

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

Fantasma,

It is reasonable to extrapolate that Turkish public nowdays consider the Greek sovereignty on the Aegean unfair, which explains the emotional tension in statements like "the Aegean will not be a Greek lake as long as we are here".

Official turkey is certainly aware that there is no rational reason to fear true offensive moves from Greece (for at least 80 years now) therefore it paints an offensive picture out of Greece's mere existence (look at the Imia issue, grey zone claims etc), which apparently is convincing for some. The legitimate implementation of 12 miles would not preclude Turkey's use of the area (by existing laws) however it is considered offensive.

SAM's are defensive weapons guys and the eastern islands have only SHORADS on board and ancient MBT's. Crete with S300 effectivelly covers an area which is well inside the Aegean not over Turkey. (the maximum effective range of SAM missiles is much less than the missile's kinematic maximum range or the radar's coverage).

I'm sure the friends from the other side understand that HAF is oblidged to intercept and deny.

Arctus wrote:

Bushmaster,

I'm not looking to get into a pissing contest with you but... why are you getting angry, or at least incredulous with 191cobra's description?

Nothing serious Arctus. Yes I am skeptical about it and I believe there is bias added to the scenario he posted. Serious matter this is to post a message like that. Anyone can claim frienshsip with any other, person or entity, and create a scenario.

I am military too, I am around Apaches at the moment, though I know my share of fighter pilots even if it is not as many as you have known all along.

It struck me a nerve yes, because any person can here and claim what he did. Now if he had viper balls, he would have posted some credible information rather than a "top gun" there I was story. Or a VTR sample?

Someone said that Turkey has some sort of satellite and can identify radar signals and does not need to send airplanes to scout. This will be true in 2008 or 2009 when the satellite will be deployed in space.

The Islands in the Aegean must be according to treaties demilitarized but south Turkey must also according to them be demilitarized. It is Turkey that has half a million army and an other two hundred thousand in reserve. And lets do not speak about the thirty thousand soldiers in Cyprus. Greece only has about two to three thousand soldiers in Cyprus. If somebody ought to demilitarize it is Turkey.

I'm sorry, but South Turkey must be demilitarized? According to which treaty?

Bushmaster, please see page 5 of this topic, there you say:

"Turkish officials need to realize that Aegean is owned by Greece, they have all the islands, and they can move weapons from one location to another, wherever they want, whenever they want"

So what does this mean?

And greeklunatic, pls read what I wrote once more. No satellite to track radar signals and read about the tech specs of the Bilsat, I dont wanna write them all here. Read about the specs of the sensors. And who really knows about the military capabilities of the Turksats? I do not know, do you?

greeklunatic8 wrote:

Is it possible that two jets crash during a dogfight? Has it happened before? If so, when and where?

Just for comparison, collisions between even friendly jet fighters happen irregularly.

For example, in recent years, in Okinawa Prefecture, Japan, JASDF or USAF F-15s sometimes collide with their wingmen. Some manage to RTB and land.

Collisions between jet fighters and civilian aircraft also happen.
For example, on 30 July 1971, above Shizukuishi Town, Iwate Prefecture, Japan, a JASDF F-86F and an ANA B-727-281 collided:

The F-86F pilot ejected and survived.
The other 162 crew and passengers didn't.

Active Member Joined: May 23, 2006 - 03:25 PM Posts: 101

Otto, regarding "greek lake" an interesting quote:

Quote:

No Baltic State has ever thought to create an international dispute out of the fact that shipping has to pass through Danish, Swedish or German waters before reaching out to the North Sea. Gulf shipping is equally obliged to visit Iranian or Omani territorial waters within the Hormuz strait, yet no Gulf state ever contested on this ground the sovereign right of either Iran or Oman to increase their territorial sea to twelve miles and close the high seas corridor which would otherwise have existed through the strait.

BTW: No orbiting turkish SAT has significant surveillance capabilities. A lot of relative information are available in public domain. I don't know about the one in design. Greece is participating in the HELIOS programm and has only one communication sat up there. Photographing the disperse sites of Mobile SAMs or visible indications of activity are worthy enough for TuAF to monthly overfly northeastern Crete.

I'm not claiming right just adding to the conversation with an argument.

Orko 8 See the CFE treaty and what the Turkish side stated during the negotiations.

Greece and Turkey do not have the capability of taking pictures from their own satellites but the can buy pictures from the Israelis. I am not sure but I thing Turkey already asked them for permission but it was not granted by the Israelis. Deploy a satellite at costs of billions of dollars while having a low-developed country like Turkey (except from Konstantinoupoli and maybe Ankara) just to take some pictures from Crete, is insanity. Get real people.

Otto wrote:

Bushmaster, please see page 5 of this topic, there you say:

"Turkish officials need to realize that Aegean is owned by Greece, they have all the islands, and they can move weapons from one location to another, wherever they want, whenever they want"

So what does this mean?

I stand by what I said. It means that they have more control over it because they have more airspace over it. This means you can't just go over it and do whatever the heck you want to do without filing a flight plan. Though I still expect FULL apology for being called a catamite in Turkish. It has been removed but it doesn't change the fact you had used the word towards me.

greeklunatic8 wrote:

Orko 8 See the CFE treaty and what the Turkish side stated during the negotiations.

I mean you are referring to the exclusion of SouthEastern Turkey from CFE treaty coverage.

A detailed analysis can be found here: http://www.fas.org/nuke/control/cfe/new ... mccaus.htm

Now, from where did you draw the conclusion that "South Turkey must be demilitarized" ?

Thanks about he site. Anyway if somebody states that he excludes an area from the CFE treaty it does mean he will not place any kind of weapons there. Simple Logic. (Wait till I find more)

Fantasma wrote:

Quote:

You must calculate that these numbers are slashed to about 10 greek eastern islands from the north Samothrace till Kastellorizo..Across the Aegean a few miles away is the so called Aegean army. About 100.000 troops, marines, a massive fleet of landing vessels,huge numbers MBT, artillery, dozens of helicopters capable for air assaults, attack helicopters, several wings with F16s and F4E-2000 (MOST OF THESE AIRCRAFTS WESTERN AND CENTRAL TURKEY).. .and ok guys will pull our unit's back.. if you are frightened!

Let's see what we have in the Western Turkey:
About 100,000 troops=More than half of that are just new comers, rookies etc..Aegean Army is training army...

Marines= Turkish Marine Brigade consists of around 3000 troops, no armored landing vehicles or special landing vehicles other than 4x4s...

Massive Landing Crafts=Most of them older than 30-40 years, probably not active...No fast hovercrafts or special landing ducked ships etc...Remind you Greece also maintains large landing fleet supported by Zubrs Hovercrafts...

Huge Number of MBTs= Most of them are older M-48s...

Several Wings of F16s/F-4E= Only airbase close to Aegean Region is
BAlikesir, only 2 F-16 squadrons are based there...Northwest, there is Bandirma Airbase but this air base closer to Istanbul than say Izmir...The closest F-4E/2020 base is maybe 300-400kms from Aegean...Dalaman Airbase sometimes used as forward air base...The closest Cigli airbase operates, T-37/38...You dont consider them as threat I guess...Greece has Crete/Limnos/Skiros airbases/forward airbases in Aegean...

Utility Helos= Only area that Turkey has advantage currently is number of available S-70/AS-532 transport helos. But Greece has or ordered better/heavier CH-47/NH-90s, Right?

Attack Helicopters=Turkish Attack Helo fleet is based in Ankara...Where is Ankara? Central Anatolia...What type of Attack helicopters we have? older generation 25 AH-1P and 8-9 active AH-1W..Only W's are Hellfire capable...On the contrary, Greece is maintaining/ordered 32 AH-64A/Ds...

You should get real Fantasma, you can not sell this argument of strong Turkish Army is waiting in the Aegean...Turkish Army is not strong in the Aegean...After recent purchases such as U-214/Leo-2/PzH-2000/Apache/NH-90/Zubr/SCALP/ Block-52+, MirageMk-5, S-300/TOR/CROTALE/PATRIOT and more...Greece has most advanced, and expensive toys in the region. Agree? You are not comparing capabilities of AH-64 to AH-1P? Are you? Or Leo-2A6 vs M-48/60/Leo-1? or Rapier Mk-2 to TOR M1?

BTW, the link shows the location of the accident took place yestersday...See , technically, it happend in the Mediterranean Sea...It is not even near Crete or Greek Airspace...

http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=35.400000,27.833333&ll=35.398006,27.833862&spn=2.955147,5.372314&t=h&om=1

Forum: F-16 News

HAF F-16 - TuAF F-16 collide mid-air