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Enthusiast Joined: Feb 28, 2006 Posts: 67 Status: Offline

Quote:

hey guys,
There were arguments about this pic all over the net and they have finally stopped.
We shouldn't start another one in here, I think.

I agree 100%....! Two Cents

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Gums, the way I read it is the X through the GUN and the 0 underneath means that you are out of throwable DU or if you want to be PC "heavy lead"

Salute!

To fezt:

I apologize for lapsing into my previous life's friendly jabs. We used to call folks by their real names or tactical callsigns with a "hyphen" followed by "breath". No insult intended, nor any other innuendo. I can't use the normal expressions we used due to the forum "rules" and such, heh heh.

Just thot I would clear this up.

out,

Gums wrote:

Salute!

To fezt:

I apologize for lapsing into my previous life's friendly jabs. We used to call folks by their real names or tactical callsigns with a "hyphen" followed by "breath". No insult intended, nor any other innuendo. I can't use the normal expressions we used due to the forum "rules" and such, heh heh.

Just thot I would clear this up.

out,

Gums,
No Problem!
didnt insult me in any way, i just didnt get it...
probably has to do with my not-to-good english.
Cheers.
Fez.

Enthusiast Joined: Apr 28, 2005 Posts: 88 Status: Offline

Maybe the Super Hornet pilot was just a better pilot.

I can offer up some stories of an F-86 beating an F-8 in a mock dogfight, or of a relatively recent mock fight between an F-14 and Mig-29 in which the F-14 won.

How long until the F-22 gets helmet mounted sights?

FDiron wrote:

Maybe the Super Hornet pilot was just a better pilot.

How long until the F-22 gets helmet mounted sights?

First off, to beat a dead horse again, you don't know the setup and/or training objective(s) of the situation.

Regarding the helmet mounted sight for the Raptor, the JHMCS/AIM-9X combo will not be intergrated into the F-22 for some time. They will go to legacy aircraft such as the F-15, F-16, and F-18s first. This is not classified/sensitive information.

Although the 9X looks like it will be operational in the Raptor before the JHMCS, the maneuvering capabilities shows the F-22 is an aircraft that least needs them at this time.

we can maybe this allllll day but if you dont have at least 15 frames, we CANT tell. New thread... later.

btw: salute, FEZZY!

If you read the data from the HUD, one can see that the gun camera could have been on a P-51, Bf-109, Spitfire or, Yak-9!
I see by the HUD, it is indeed a F-22. That the F/A-18E/F is at 15,090 feet altitude, diving down on the F-22 -30° nose low, "closure rate" on the F-22 of 210mph, the gun is firing (the black rectangle in the upper left), pulling 1.9 G's, Mach is 0.36, the AoA is 20.3°, just 900 feet distance between the F/A-18 and, the "AIR SPEED" of 182mph.
Now tell me what the ROE's are that have the F-22 is involved in a fight under these circumstances???

Adrian

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1090

Oh stop... who cares if an F-22 lost a round to an F/A-18E in a mock dogfight? Really, who cares? That's like saying your little brother (who's not so little) couldn't manage to surprise you by putting you on your a$$ one day while you wrestled for the remote or something. Big deal, you'll still be kicking his butt for years to come. Hehehe. And no, I don't have any younger brothers.

Elite 1K Joined: Jul 20, 2005 Posts: 1034 Status: Offline

The following was posted by Dozer on fencecheck.com and should clear up anything regarding this incident...Check

Quoting Dozer-- "The Hornet "snap" shot - good story. Happened here at Langley. It was a stock, combat configured F-22 flying a BFM (dogfighting) sortie against an airshow configured, i.e. squeeky clean, not combat configured or loaded, Super Hornet (not at all representative of how it performs with 8 pylons, an EA pod and 4-6 or missiles hanging off the rails and probably a fuel tank or two or their out of gas real quick...). It started from a 9000 foot line abreast 300 knot setup (which AF pilots never fly) where they turned into each other at the "fights on" call. It's not a scenario we fly because we never find ourselves in those parameters, we try to set up realistic parameters we expect to see in combat - otherwise the lessons learned aren't applicable and while it might be fun it's not a good use of scarce training time (I don't know if that's a setup the Navy flies or it might just have been a quick attempt to get a last engagement in if they were low on gas - I don't have that info). The Hornet pilot gave up everything he had to point at the Raptor and take a snap shot - it was NOT a tracking shot (stabilized and enough bullets to cause a kill), it was about 2 or 3 frames (many more required to cause a kill - OK - for you skeptics there's always the golden BB but let me finish first...). The AF pilot honored the training rules we're all supposed to abide by, they've been written in blood because pilots have been killed in these scenarios so our training rules look to prevent those scenarios by causing guys to quit manuevering for the shot to prevent a mid-air collision. With greater than a 135 aspect angle and inside of 9000 feet we're supposed to avoid pure or lead pursuit to avoid that head on collision, inside that range at our tactical speeds there's not enough time to react to prevent a collision once you realize it's going to happen. The Navy pilot completely blew off that rule, the AF pilot honored it, the Navy pilot pulled lead pursuit all the way into the high aspect (greater than the 135 degree gun shot rule) snap shot, the AF pilot lagged off to prevent the mid-air collision potential, the Navy pilot was still on the trigger inside the 1000 foot rule (we're supposed to avoid getting inside of 1000 feet from each other to also help prevent mid-air collisions), attempting to get the snap shot, he's inside the 1000 foot range with the trigger on, flies within about 200 feet of the Raptor (remember who's backed off to honor the training rules), and dang near kills himself and the Raptor pilot and causing what would have been one of the worst fighter to fighter disasters in recorded history. I've had that happen twice to me when I was flying the Eagle as a weapons officer (close enough to hear very loud engine noise and I figured I was dead both times, but God wasn't ready to take me yet), and both times I knocked off the fight, made the guy fly home, busted him on the ride and he had to explain to me and the boss why he was being stupid. That is the ONLY gun shot video I have ever heard of or seen from ANY Hornet engagement, ever. And it was a hugely B.S. and completely boneheaded act as you can see from the actual circumstances. In the real world - the Hornet never saw the Raptor and he was dead w/o ever knowing what hit him - that's the cold hard truth, like it or not - sorry if you're a Hornet fan but that's how all of our engagements with Hornets, Tomcats, Eagles, Vipers, etc. have gone. You would be amused if I had time to tell you how the hundreds of engagements went I've had with aircraft of all types, the biggest problem we have now is getting anyone to fly with us because they get no training, they never see us and they just die. Unless we promise to do some within visual range manuevering with them where we start and can see each other at the start, no one (Navy or AF) wants to fly vs. the Raptor anymore - that alone ought to tell you what the truth is."

Elite 1K Joined: May 10, 2005 Posts: 1097 Status: Offline

Thank goodness....I was getting SOOO sick of the Hornet and Sukhoi fanbois circulating that piece of crap picture around as if it meant something.

Dozer is GREAT people, a real class act.

Elite 1K Joined: Aug 19, 2004 Posts: 1090

That'd be kind of funny if it wasn't so deadly serious. It can be dangerous training against someone that wants to get famous by taking out "Goliath".

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Forum: F-22A Raptor

The F-22 loses to a Super Hornet