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experimental_pilot
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 Posted: May 17, 2006 - 06:52 AM
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Regular User
Joined: Jun 10, 2005
Posts: 37
Location: Canada
Status: Offline
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 Posted: Sep 07, 2008 - 12:54 PM
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Roscoe
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 03:21 PM
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Elite
Joined: Jun 29, 2004
Posts: 961
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Read the comments that go with this snap shot. One frame does not a kill make, and this is a lousy gun pass (out of plane, real high aspect, and virtually out of airspeed). need more frames to know if this was a valid kill or not. Odds are high that after he overshoots, and he will, the Raptor will reverse and wax him.
Also do not know where the engagement started. It could very well have been started with the Raptor in a defensive position and the SH on the perch. |
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Roscoe
<b>"It's time to get medieval, I'm goin' in for guns"</b> - <i>Dos Gringos</i>
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teleporter
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 03:36 PM
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Newbie
Joined: Apr 10, 2006
Posts: 6
Status: Offline
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hey guys,
There were arguments about this pic all over the net and they have finally stopped.
We shouldn't start another one in here, I think.  |
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Guysmiley
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 03:49 PM
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Elite
Joined: May 26, 2005
Posts: 1093
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Given enough of an advantage you could get the same shot from a P-51 on a SH.  Like Roscoe said so well, "one frame does not a kill make", the video clip would be highly interesting, but that isn't what is floating around the net.  |
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snypa777
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 05:04 PM
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Elite
Joined: Jul 26, 2005
Posts: 1444
Location: United kingdom
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Saw a web page/forum recently where the author showed gun camera footage shots. All single shots of a half dozen different aircraft. I saw Harriers/Lightnings/F-16s/F-15s and F-14s in the Mirage 2000s gun sight.
DUPLEX provided that link--http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb ... 000056;p=0
In the link, an article talks of the Mirage instructors in the French AdA showing the Harrier how it should be done. Even though a year before the Harrier had done so well in REAL combat. Suppose that`s the difference folks.
I have also seen F-15s getting nailed by Sea Harriers with guns, Mirage 2000s getting nailed by Lightnings and F-16s.
Point is these were all exercises. The F-22 is going to get whacked a few more times close in, big deal....Now I know pilots don`t like to lose even mock A2A fights but without knowing ROEs, shots like that one shown are sometimes useless info`. In a shooting war, there are no gentleman's ROEs.
In real combat, the F-22 will stand off and pick off it`s opponents as designed.
In the pic below, from left to right, Sea Harrier, F-16, F-14, F-15, Lightning, Canberra, Vulcan, Hunter....all in a Mirage 2000 gun sight...Does this mean that the Mirage is THE ultimate fighter???  (even though it looks impressive!!). |
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"I may not agree with what you say....but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
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Scorpion1alpha
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 05:06 PM
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Elite
Joined: Oct 21, 2005
Posts: 757
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| Hasn't this been talked about before here? |
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LordOfBunnies
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 06:15 PM
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Veteran
Joined: Jul 21, 2005
Posts: 471
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| Even if if were a kill, how many times has the 22 beaten up every pilot that's tried to kill it. It's average record in these engagements is about 300-1. We have pilots on this site who've fought 22s and they say its the most boring thing in the world. They go up, fly around, and get the call they are dead. Shots like this are the outlier, not the rule. Also, the RoE are very important. In the real world, this might be a kill, but why would the 22 let itself get into this position when it can standoff and shoot down. |
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Please bear with me... I'm still learning.
Peace through superior firepower.
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checksixx
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 07:33 PM
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Elite
Joined: Jul 20, 2005
Posts: 1031
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Gentleman,
I have posted this several times on other boards. All the anti-raptor folks love this shot "cause it proves the superhornet is better". Wrong.
No-one on the other boards even thought that maybe the Navy asked to pit the Superhornet vs. Raptor to see what it would be like for the crew to engage a "5th gen" fighter at close range. Remember, we want the Raptor to win its fight. But we also want the Superhornet crew to win its fights. What better way than use the Raptor as a training tool! Why do you think agressor squadrons are used? Most of the instructors could use the jet and waste the student but that does not accomplish training. They fight as the enemy is perceived to fight and TRAIN the student.
All I see in that frame, if it was indeed on target, is EXCELLENT training for the hornet crew and a happy and willling trainer!
-Check |
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fezt
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 08:53 PM
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Active member
Joined: Sep 14, 2004
Posts: 154
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Roscoe wrote:
Read the comments that go with this snap shot. One frame does not a kill make, and this is a lousy gun pass (out of plane, real high aspect, and virtually out of airspeed). need more frames to know if this was a valid kill or not. Odds are high that after he overshoots, and he will, the Raptor will reverse and wax him.
Also do not know where the engagement started. It could very well have been started with the Raptor in a defensive position and the SH on the perch.
Everything is true accept the "lousy" gun pass remark, we dont have the full video but it looks like its a good gun pass. overshoot? you overshoot 90% of gunshots, thats why its important not to miss when you use the gun...
fez. |
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Gums
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 09:10 PM
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Elite
Joined: Dec 16, 2003
Posts: 798
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Salute!
fetz-breath!
over 20 degrees of AoA?
What does the "x" over the "gun" word mean?
The shooter is way outta "plane", meaning this looks like a "snapshot". I like snap shots, but I wanna see more frames of the HUD video.
The Viper got nailed by Top Gun School A-4 Scooters and such early on. Same with USAF Aggressor F-5's from Nellis. Just beause we had the premier knife fight jet at the time didn't mean we were invincible. Of course, the other guys had good GCI as we were plainly visible on anyone's radar. And we had ROE that prevented a face shot with a Slammer from 10 miles or so.
I would appreciate a comment from the pinball wizards out there about the HUD clutter. Unlike many of the dinosaurs that flew the Viper and SLUF, I was able to menatally de-clutter. But sometimes even I think we have too much up there. Seems like we could have the max gee and such hidden unless we had a reason to call it up for review. And other crapola that I don't think is necessary when in that telephone booth with your knife out.
Oh well, neat pic.
Gums sends........ |
_________________
Gums
Viper pilot '79
"God in your guts, good men at your back, wings that stay on - and Tally Ho!"
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fezt
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 09:20 PM
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Active member
Joined: Sep 14, 2004
Posts: 154
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Gums wrote:
Salute!
fetz-breath!
over 20 degrees of AoA?
What does the "x" over the "gun" word mean?
The shooter is way outta "plane", meaning this looks like a "snapshot". I like snap shots, but I wanna see more frames of the HUD video.
The Viper got nailed by Top Gun School A-4 Scooters and such early on. Same with USAF Aggressor F-5's from Nellis. Just beause we had the premier knife fight jet at the time didn't mean we were invincible. Of course, the other guys had good GCI as we were plainly visible on anyone's radar. And we had ROE that prevented a face shot with a Slammer from 10 miles or so.
I would appreciate a comment from the pinball wizards out there about the HUD clutter. Unlike many of the dinosaurs that flew the Viper and SLUF, I was able to menatally de-clutter. But sometimes even I think we have too much up there. Seems like we could have the max gee and such hidden unless we had a reason to call it up for review. And other crapola that I don't think is necessary when in that telephone booth with your knife out.
Oh well, neat pic.
Gums sends........
add the helmet mount and you realy have too much out there...
the trick is not to see anything but what you kneed to. i dont even look on the helmet sight untill its time to nail someone.. it takes time "not" to use all the info. did i answer your question?
i like snapshots too and i said we need more video to be sure, but it "feels" good to me..
your comment about breathing i didnt understand...
fezy. |
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boff180
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 09:23 PM
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Elite
Joined: Jun 29, 2005
Posts: 781
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RE: the "X"
I've never seen a Rhino symbology diagram but I'd say its one of two things...
A) A second indicator that its out of Ammo (the 0 on the ammo counter below is a big indicator too)
B) All switches are at safe.
Andy |
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Guysmiley
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 10:49 PM
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Elite
Joined: May 26, 2005
Posts: 1093
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Quote:
your comment about breathing i didnt understand...
Gums! You done confused the Israeli! It's not an insult, it's... like a nickname.
Searching for the original thread where this was posted, I see I stole AfterburnerDecalsScott's idea about a P-51 v F-22. Sorry! I swear it was a subconcious memory. http://www.f-16.net/f-16_forum_viewtopi ... t-195.html Of course shortly thereafter it degenerated into a troll about stealth being a joke. |
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snypa777
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 11:46 PM
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Elite
Joined: Jul 26, 2005
Posts: 1444
Location: United kingdom
Status: Offline
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Scorpion1alpha wrote:
Hasn't this been talked about before here?
Knew it had been posted before......GUY` just confirmed it!!! I lamely looked for earlier threads, but not too hard!  |
_________________
"I may not agree with what you say....but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
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fezt
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Posted: May 17, 2006 - 11:58 PM
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Active member
Joined: Sep 14, 2004
Posts: 154
Status: Offline
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Guysmiley wrote:
Quote:
your comment about breathing i didnt understand...
Gums! You done confused the Israeli! It's not an insult, it's... like a nickname.
is this even in english? i dont get it, sorry.
fezy. |
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