Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

there's been a lot of comparing jets with the viper, so I thought what about the other enemies of the viper, namely HOBS combo's and legacy jets that now have the capability to use them.. Here im considering that the viper has no -9X and that the foe has the first shot.

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Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

coughAMRAAMcough

:edit:
Whoops, I missed the "2 miles" part. I formally change my answer to "It depends on the situation."

It depends on many factors, you can never say for sure what will happen.

Anyway, from 2 miles away an AA-11 would make a kill almost certainly. It has a speed of about Mach 2.5 = 1900 mph....it takes 3.75 seconds to reach the target. If we consider also the acceleration time off the rail we might get up to 5-6 seconds at most. Considering that the AA-11 can take up to 45Gs and the target needs to pull more than 12Gs to brake the lock (Viper's max is 9), plus the limited time...kill sphere of the blast has a radius of about 9 meters (big warhead).

You say the AA-11 armed guy has the first shot. Well, if you have a first shot capability with 4th generation IR AAMs (no matter if AA-11, AIM-9X, Python 4, ASRAAM, Mica IR, IRIS-T) it's most likely a kill.

Let me put it this way: what are the chances of a man in an open field against a sniper at 200 yards away (with a .308 caliber scoped rifle) who has the first shot? It's the closest analogy I can find to your question.

The only thing is, Russian missiles are notoriously unreliable. Then again, so is the Sidewinder Wink

Well, you're question leaves out a lot of what happens before that "legacy" aircraft with HOB missiles and maybe a helmet mounted sighting system gets that shot. But to just answer the question straightfowardly, many aircraft, including the Viper will not stand a good chance of surviving that shot. But then you can say the same thing if they fired an AIM-9X, Python 4/5, IRIS-T, ASRAAM, MICA-IR, etc, etc.

But to expand on the scenerio, they will have to get to that 2 miles closing first right? Since that is the most logical case and counting other realistic factors such as AWACS, AMRAAMs, radar/sensors, situational awareness, training, TACTICS, etc, my money is on the Viper to wipe out that "legacy" aircraft carrying the Archer long before 2 miles comes up.

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

RoAF wrote:

Let me put it this way: what are the chances of a man in an open field against a sniper at 200 yards away (with a .308 caliber scoped rifle) who has the first shot? It's the closest analogy I can find to your question.

Well said sir.

Quote:

The only thing is, Russian missiles are notoriously unreliable. Then again, so is the Sidewinder

boff180, believe me, AA-8 and AA_11 are a much different stuff than the Atoll or R-27. At an exercise shooting you can regularly take out of them a 90% success rate. Of course in real combat the figure is much lower but still, those two are quite reliable.

The only likely scenario to get at 2 miles is: fly at a very low level (under what the Viper radar can "see" and pop up right behind it - provided you have a really good GCI) and get him from the rear and below. Can be done if say he's the last one in the strike package or he is alone.
Ah, and no AWACS coverage - highly unlikely if we're talking about a USAF Viper, but could happen to other users who don't have any AWACS.

well i did have the worst case scenario in mind.but lets expand and include a one on one with both jets in WVR and locked on,which jet has the better chance of getting a first shot, viper with a 9M or a mig<29 .both aircraft at samee altitude, attitude and speed but the viper is within the archers engagment envelope.. More appropiatly, you're in the cockpit in this situation. what do you do to stay out of the danger zone

at 2 miles in a neutral (3-9 pass before engagement) senario pull into the Fulcrum as hard as you can once missile is fired and hope to bleed its speed off or get outside of gimble limit, or simply extend and try to get out of its range. If head on...Reverse direction with a vertical pull and pray to whomever suits you.

Angels225 wrote:

Quote:

well i did have the worst case scenario in mind.but lets expand and include a one on one with both jets in WVR and locked on,which jet has the better chance of getting a first shot, viper with a 9M or a mig<29 .both aircraft at samee altitude, attitude and speed but the viper is within the archers engagment envelope.. More appropiatly, you're in the cockpit in this situation. what do you do to stay out of the danger zone

Well, what variant of the Archer are we talking about?
1. The R-73A/E early production/downgraded export version used by USSR/Yugoslavia, Peru, Iran, Germany? - max range 20 km head-on, 40 degrees off-boresight
2. The R-73 M1 current production, Russia, China, Hungary, India - max. range 30km, 45 deg. off-boresight
3. The newly-developed R-73 M2 (rumor India has them) - max. range 40 km, 60 deg. off boresight, ECCM

Make a pick!

R-73M2 and a HOBS on the dude who's in the jet

Ick. its the Uber-Archer!! How does it get that long of a range?

Well, I see you're doing your best to kill that Viper.

Situation A
If you think you are outside the NEZ, just pull a hard 180 and go up say at 60 deg., full burner, that might get you out of it's range. Not good because you are in a (very) defensive posture and might get another missile up your @$$

Situation B
At close ranges fly into the missile (I know it sounds suicidal) and pull hard at the right moment. You have a good chance of avoiding the direct hit, but you'd still set off the proximity fuse. Even if you escape the first missile, you'd be hit by the second (If in combat on a MiG you would usually fire missiles in pairs - ripple fire - for balance reasons and better result)
You might want to launch a 9 Mike even outside parameters just to scare off the MiG and put it into a defensive posture (so he won't have time to launch a missile, let alone 2 and meanwhile close in as fast as you can to score a hit with another AIM-9.

great answers!!

RoAF wrote:

Angels225 wrote:

Quote:

well i did have the worst case scenario in mind.but lets expand and include a one on one with both jets in WVR and locked on,which jet has the better chance of getting a first shot, viper with a 9M or a mig<29 .both aircraft at samee altitude, attitude and speed but the viper is within the archers engagment envelope.. More appropiatly, you're in the cockpit in this situation. what do you do to stay out of the danger zone

Well, what variant of the Archer are we talking about?
1. The R-73A/E early production/downgraded export version used by USSR/Yugoslavia, Peru, Iran, Germany? - max range 20 km head-on, 40 degrees off-boresight
2. The R-73 M1 current production, Russia, China, Hungary, India - max. range 30km, 45 deg. off-boresight
3. The newly-developed R-73 M2 (rumor India has them) - max. range 40 km, 60 deg. off boresight, ECCM

Make a pick!

Theres no R73M1 or M2- only the E which itself may have been improved, everyone gets the R73E

Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

Viper versus an AA-11 archer at 2 miles?