Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

Hye !

This is just to know what you think about which is the best in WVR... I've heard that the Harrier were capable of special tricks in a dogfight...

Cheers

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Yep, the US marines devceloped a tactic of momentarily throwing the nozzles into VTOL position to force an overshoot. Its become an established tactic tested against most NATO (and East german MiG's) aircraft and earnt some kills in the South Atlantic.

It by no means gives the Harrier a Dead cert kill but it would certainly help in a dogfight vs an F-16 should the pilot find himself in a position to pull it off.

Be inetresting to see if anybody can recount any exercises where the two planes have clashed.

Works great when 1v1. If the other guy has support though you better get a good shot off fast cause you're gonna die real soon

I wonder if the marines will be missing that tactic when their harriers are replaced with f-35's.. considering all the extra moving parts involved in the VTOL operation of that plane Sad

TMor wrote:

This is just to know what you think about which is the best in WVR... I've heard that the Harrier were capable of special tricks in a dogfight...

Well, the Falcon definitely enjoys a much better airframe and great thrust to weight ratio.Better instanteneous as well as sustained turn rates should ,generally, give it an advantage over the SHarrier.Regarding the Harrier's tricks,you must be talking about VIFFing maneuvers.

Well, it seems that they are more of a last ditch maneuver, since they dramaticlly decrease the fighter's kinetic energy. Therefore,when not covered by a free fighter,it would present a sitting duck target for a second bogey that decides to engage,let alone the fact that the already engaged fighter,against which the SHarrier was defending,could employ a guns snapshot and finish the fight early...

Duymon wrote:

I wonder if the marines will be missing that tactic when their harriers are replaced with f-35's.. considering all the extra moving parts involved in the VTOL operation of that plane Sad

Very interesting comment...

I wonder if the F-35 B will be capable of extreme manouvres using it`s swivel bearing gear? Kind of like a limited TVC. Although i just can`t see the lift fan doors opening to bring the fan into play in extreme manouvres!

The flight control software would probably not allow either...

As for viffing, I have only ever heard about it`s use as being very rare in combat. Harrier pilots do use the nozzles in air combat but I don`t think to the extent viffing requires. As Roscoe and Duymon have said it leaves the Harrier vulnerable.

I am looking for some Harrier V Viper ex`s but take a look at these recounts by A famous RN commander. I posted these on another thread. Interesting reading.... Harrier V F-15, Harrier V F-5E Aggressors squadron...If handled properly the Harrier is a handful when it is flown in it`s own environment, which is a key point to remember, ie, low to medium altitude. Harriers don`t like high altitude flying where they are at a distinct disadvantage!

http://www.combatsim.com/memb123/archiv ... 5_shar.htm

As a sidenote: in Oct. 2003 there was an exercise involving RAF Harrier GR7s and Romanian MiG-21 MF Lancer C. Part of the exercise was dedicated to WVR combat and reportedly the Brits did use the "viffing" technique a few times in order to get outside the engagement cone of the DASH/Python 3 combo. (+-30 degrees off boresight).
So if it's used in a mock air combat it might as well be used in a real engagement.

HARRIER has exuasts nesr the fuse league...which can be more fatal than other planes ,a heat seeking missile can damage harrier much more than other planes in case of making evasive manuover..HARRIER made kills against some mirages in falkland war but after all VIPER is a not mirage iii or something like that.HARRIER cannot fly super sonic while VIPER can ...1 ON 1 VIPER will enter the fight with full speed and will take the fight to its favorite ground.

At which point the harrier will decellorate and force the viper into its favourite grounds.

Any missile hitting the power plant of and aircraft will more than likely kill it regardless of where the engine is!

Of note, until the advent of the Typhoon (and the sad retirement of the Sea Harrier FA2), the Sea Harrier units would regularly deploy to RAF Lakenheath to conduct exercises with the F-15's. Why? Because they were the only thing in british airspace that could hold their own WVR against them at the time!

One kill in the Falklands by a Sea Harrier was obtained firing no weapons.

Noting an argi Puma low level between crags the pilot got a visual ID when too close and out of position for guns or missiles. The pilot intended to fly directly over the puma and then decellorate and turn hard to get in a guns position.

As he passed over the top of the rotor blades (only a few feet above) the pilot pointed his exhaust nozzles down to viff.... the jet wash went through the rotoblades, caused them to loose lift and the puma smashed into the side of a cliff!

Andy

I think the Harrier would have the advantage of a ZERo turn radius available, but not neccesarily used, while the Viper would enjoy more AB thrust, but the Harrier could always run the Viper out of Gas if it can stay out of the envelope long enough.

I've fought the Harrier numerous times. In any A-A, BVR or WVR, it takes an enormous mistake by the Viper driver to lose. The idea that a Harrier can use its thrust vectoring to any measure of success vs a competent 3+ generation fighter is a myth. He will either be out of control or a sitting duck. To be fair, A-A is not their core competency. In the air to mud role the harrier is in some way far superior to the Viper (avionics and radar modes). The Marines take enormous pride in their abilities and knowledge in the CAS realm. From what I've seen their reputation in that regard is well earned.

Cheers

so, thrust wins eh?

Duymon wrote:

I wonder if the marines will be missing that tactic when their harriers are replaced with f-35's.. considering all the extra moving parts involved in the VTOL operation of that plane

The F-35 is capable of a vertical take-off. There is a lot of video of the F-35 taking off vertically. Now, in operation the F-35 will not operate in that mode. I have not heard if the F-35 will be able 'viff'.

falcon_sgd wrote:

HARRIER has exuasts nesr the fuse league...which can be more fatal than other planes ,a heat seeking missile can damage harrier much more than other planes in case of making evasive manuover

This was a real problem over Iraq during PGW#1. Due to the hot exhaust being mid-fuselage MANPADs cause more damage by an impact or near miss compared to the same situation in a contemporary jet with the exhaust being at the view rear of the fuselage.

falcon_sgd wrote:

HARRIER made kills against some mirages in falkland war but after all VIPER is a not mirage iii or something like that.

Yes they did but, there were a couple of factors as to why the score was so lopsided.
1) Harrier pilots did not leave with the fleet! They were involved in a Red Flag type program with the French AF learning tactics to specifically to counter the Mirage 3.
2) The Harrier had the Sidewinder 9L.
3) The Harrier only had to defend against the low level penetrator. Fleet SAMs could deal medium and high altitude attackers.
4) The Argentine AF had neither weapons nor tactics to deal with the Harrier.

Adrian

Duymon wrote:

I wonder if the marines will be missing that tactic when their harriers are replaced with f-35's.. considering all the extra moving parts involved in the VTOL operation of that plane Sad

I won't say yes or no. Nostalgia might set in but the F-35 brings a whole new bag of tricks to table. Overall, I would expect pilots to settle in the F-35 pretty quickly leaving nobody wishing they still had Harriers

Forum: F-16 versus XYZ

F-16 versus Sea Harrier in WVR