Forum: Program and politics

Australia showing growing concern...



Search Search  Register Register  Private Messages Private Messages
guidelines Forum Guidelines
Post new topic   Reply to topic   
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic
Author Message
elp
PostPosted: Jan 04, 2006 - 06:18 PM Reply with quote Back to top
F-16.net Editor
F-16.net Editor


Joined: Sep 23, 2003 - 09:08 PM
Posts: 3147

Quote:
British threat to fighter project
John Kerin - January 05, 2006

Australia is facing a further cost blowout on its purchase of next-generation fighters, with Britain threatening to pull out of the US-led joint strike fighter project over Washington's reluctance to share the secrets of stealth technology.

Canberra has not threatened to withdraw from the $256 billion project despite the escalating cost of the warplanes, but says it shares Britain's concerns.

Source: www.theaustralian.news.com.au


For the full article, see: http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/co ... 77,00.html

_________________
- ELP -
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Sponsor
New postPosted: May 25, 2013 - 5:34 PM Back to top
F-16.net Sponsor





  Send private message  
 
snypa777
PostPosted: Jan 04, 2006 - 09:05 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite 1K
Elite 1K


Joined: Jul 26, 2005 - 03:00 AM
Posts: 1527

Status: Offline
Reduced orders for the JSF, probably ANY prospective piece of hardware just drives up the unit cost... The more I read about ITAR issues etc, the more I think that it is just pose and posture by us in the UK, now the Aussies`,to get a larger slice of the economic pie!

I still think there will be a full tech` transfer to certain US allies, the UK and Australia being two of those....Watch this space.

If all the international partners pulled out of JSF, would that be enough to kill the project? Even if one of the models was killed off? I don`t think so.....Even the Norsemen are getting cold feet. In the end it might not matter much..

_________________
"I may not agree with what you say....but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
locum
PostPosted: Jan 04, 2006 - 09:15 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Feb 05, 2005 - 02:20 AM
Posts: 132

Status: Offline
If you hit the link above, look at the right part and the 4th article 'Costs hit fighter jet order'. According to this article the unit price of the F-35 has already gone up from USD 45 mil. to USD 60 million, is this true?

_________________
Nulla tenaci invia est via.
Tzaruch shemirah, hasof bahr
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
elp
PostPosted: Jan 04, 2006 - 09:19 PM Reply with quote Back to top
F-16.net Editor
F-16.net Editor


Joined: Sep 23, 2003 - 09:08 PM
Posts: 3147

I have lost count, but there are ( a good number ? a few? ) Aussie companies that have successfully competed ( and won ) JSF workshare contracts.

_________________
- ELP -
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
snypa777
PostPosted: Jan 04, 2006 - 09:28 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Elite 1K
Elite 1K


Joined: Jul 26, 2005 - 03:00 AM
Posts: 1527

Status: Offline
elp wrote:
I have lost count, but there are ( a good number ? a few? ) Aussie companies that have successfully competed ( and won ) JSF workshare contracts.


Forgive my ignorance but can someone give me a brief summary of exactly what "workshare" is? In relation to JSF.
Does it mean, say, Aussie ` companies making components for JSF, even if they pull out of buying them, ie still making parts for USAF, Navy JSFs?

Or...assembling some of the jets whole to be distributed to any buyers?
thanks in advance Very Happy

_________________
"I may not agree with what you say....but I will defend to the death your right to say it".
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
elp
PostPosted: Apr 17, 2006 - 04:50 PM Reply with quote Back to top
F-16.net Editor
F-16.net Editor


Joined: Sep 23, 2003 - 09:08 PM
Posts: 3147

snypa777 wrote:
elp wrote:
I have lost count, but there are ( a good number ? a few? ) Aussie companies that have successfully competed ( and won ) JSF workshare contracts.


Forgive my ignorance but can someone give me a brief summary of exactly what "workshare" is? In relation to JSF.
Does it mean, say, Aussie ` companies making components for JSF, even if they pull out of buying them, ie still making parts for USAF, Navy JSFs?

Or...assembling some of the jets whole to be distributed to any buyers?
thanks in advance Very Happy


I think you would be correct. There are certain Aussie companies that have won bids on JSF components. And would do that work reqardless of what the Aussie government decides for procurement.

Just some of the usual stuff here on the latest news....




http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=95963


New jet fighters could cost $18 billion
Sunday Apr 16 07:36 AEST

Quote:
The price Australia will pay the US for 100 Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) jets could top $18 billion - up $6 billion or 50 per cent on the price in 2002, when the deal was announced.

The Lockheed Martin jets are already expected to cost $16 billion but that figure could blow out further, said chief executive Peter Goon, whose Adelaide-based company, Australian Flight Test Services, provides military flight test and aerospace engineering services.

"The total cost of the JSF project has already increased significantly, with the US General Accounting Office revising the cost upwards this year, from $US256 billion to $US276 billion ($A350 billion to A378 billion)," Mr Goon told Fairfax newspapers.

"Our estimates indicate that another very significant cost increase will be announced within the next three to five weeks."

A spokesman for JSF maker Lockheed Martin, Andrew Sloan, said it was very likely further cost estimates would be announced.

"We currently estimate the planes will cost around $100 million each, but then you have servicing, maintenance, training and other costs on top of that - which you can usually estimate to double the cost of the plane - which then brings you up to around the $18 billion to $20 billion mark for Australia," he told Fairfax.

Australia has until the end of the year to decide whether to go ahead with the purchase.

Six other countries, including Italy, Britain, Canada and the Netherlands, are also considering the jet.

The JSF is intended to replace Australia's fleet of 33 F-111 and 70 F/A-18 Hornets by 2012, but delivery is expected to be delayed until about 2015. It was chosen because it will be able to fulfil a dual role now performed by the F-111s and F/A-18s.

Mr Goon urged the Department of Defence to maintain the F-111 fleet and buy the more expensive F-22 Raptor, which is already in production.

But Australian National University defence expert Alan Stephens said the lobby against the JSF was "quite wrong".

"We cannot continually look for quick fixes, and stretching the life of F-111s is exactly that," Dr Stephens said. "The JSF is quite simply the best package available to suit our defence needs into the future."



= = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = = =

And.... the life of the F-111 brought up yet again....which is tied to this whole mess.


Time's up for F-111s

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,10117,18836008-2,00.html

From: Reuters By Ian McPhedran

April 17, 2006
Quote:
AUSTRALIA'S frontline strike aircraft could be grounded within two years as costs blow out and the risk of accidents escalates.

Senior air force officers and defence scientists are pushing to "fast track" plans to buy long-range missiles and upgrade other planes so the F-111s can be withdrawn from service.
The planes are due to be phased out from 2010 but The Courier-Mail has learned moves are under way to bring that forward to 2008.

Opponents fear Australia's defences would be left exposed before new US-built Joint Strike Fighters are ready.

Based at Amberley, west of Brisbane, the aircraft known as "pigs" for their ability to use ground-hugging radars to hunt close to the ground, have been Australia's leading long-range strike weapon since the 1970s.

They have become less effective due to modern electronic warfare and stealth technology.

The aircraft must also be escorted by more up-to-date F/A-18 Hornet fighters.
Nine RAAF officers have died in F-111 crashes and statistics indicate the ageing planes are overdue for an incident.

Chief Defence Scientist Dr Roger Lough has told a parliamentary committee that the F-111 was "ancient" by combat aircraft standards.

He said he had a "whole division" of scientists at Fishermans Bend in Victoria devoted to keeping the machines flying.

Current plans have the strike aircraft retiring between 2010 and 2012, but military sources say top brass are increasingly concerned about ballooning costs and risks to aircrew.

"They want them off the flight line as soon as possible," one source said.

RAAF chief Air Marshal Geoff Shepherd, who logged 2500 hours in F-111s, told the parliamentary inquiry it was vital not to leave the retirement date to "chance".

He said keeping them flying could cost billions of dollars. "We need to get out of the F-111 business."

Tens of millions of taxpayer dollars are being spent every month so No. 1 Squadron's 28 operational F-111s can stay in the air.

Last year the RAAF budget blew out by about $200 million and most of that was due to the growing costs of operating the F-111s.

The main worry is fatigue deep within the 30 to 40-year-old airframes.

The Government has virtually decided to spend $15 billion to buy about 100 of the yet-to-be built US Joint Strike Fighters to replace the RAAF's 28 F-111s and 71 Hornets.

The so-called fifth-generation stealth fighters will not be delivered until 2014 or later.

Key strategies to avoid any "gap" are new air-to-air refuelling tankers, upgraded Hornets and highly lethal long-range "shoot and forget" missiles.

_________________
- ELP -
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
goatmilk
PostPosted: Apr 17, 2006 - 07:34 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Mar 03, 2005 - 12:43 AM
Posts: 190

Status: Offline
I'm wondering why Australia didn't consider purchasing Super Hornets (or did they?) as they are available now, newer, and would more than likely fulfill their need for a dual-role fighter to replace the ageing F-111s and even the older F-18s. Not to mention the cost would be lower than say, purchasing F-22s and I assume there would also be a familiarity between pilots and maintainers being that they've had the F-18C for quite some time now. Even if it's just to fill in the "gap". Possibly even new F-15s as RoK did? Did their plans to purchase the F-35 in the future made this scenario not possible? Also, did they ever consider other 4th-5th gen fighters from other countries such as the Rafale or Typhoon, or is Australia more inclined to purchase US made products as they have in the past? I know there's alot of politics that goes into making decisions and what country to make them with, but I just never heard them making any other considerations besides the F-35 and F-22. Looks like everyone wants a piece of that stealth pie...
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
elp
PostPosted: Apr 17, 2006 - 07:53 PM Reply with quote Back to top
F-16.net Editor
F-16.net Editor


Joined: Sep 23, 2003 - 09:08 PM
Posts: 3147

There was some big long paper published by their defense pros that outlines all that and someone here posted the link and.... I don't know where it is. Laughing

_________________
- ELP -
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
goatmilk
PostPosted: Apr 17, 2006 - 08:06 PM Reply with quote Back to top
Active Member
Active Member


Joined: Mar 03, 2005 - 12:43 AM
Posts: 190

Status: Offline
Awww c'mon!! hehe jk. Duhh guess I should've did my research first or do the google thing, but hey, who needs all that when I got you guys? Wink
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
boff180
PostPosted: Apr 20, 2006 - 11:01 AM Reply with quote Back to top
Forum Veteran
Forum Veteran


Joined: Jun 29, 2005 - 11:58 AM
Posts: 927

Status: Offline
Jet fighter costs go skyward as price of rival nosedives
a.. b.. Email
c.. Print
d.. Normal font
e.. Large font
By Tom Allard
April 20, 2006

AdvertisementAdvertisement
THE F-22A Raptor strike jet - considered the best manned warplane yet - can be bought for about the same price that Australia will pay for the first batch of F-35 Joint Strike Fighters, new figures show.

The data from the US Department of Defence highlights a disturbing trend for the Government: as the price of the F-22A declines, the cost of the Joint Strike Fighter is rapidly increasing.

"It's extremely concerning," said Dennis Jensen, a Coalition MP and a former defence scientist. "What I want to know is how does Defence get the numbers so wrong?"

As well as posing fresh questions over defence costings, the new figures will rekindle debate about whether Australia will get the right aircraft to maintain its long-held air superiority in the region.

The Joint Strike Fighter is Australia's preferred option to replace its FA-18 and F-111s, at a cost of $15 billion.

However, the Chief of the Defence Force, Angus Houston, has said the F-22A "will be the most outstanding fighter aircraft ever built" and possibly the "end of the line in manned fighters".

It can travel at supersonic speeds without afterburners, has unprecedented stealthiness and can launch missiles out of range of other fighter jets and air defence networks.

The problem has always been price. Australia's military has insisted it is at least three times as expensive as the Joint Strike Fighter and simply unaffordable.

But the latest US Department of Defence selected acquisition report, released earlier this month, shows that the F-22A can be bought for $US127 million ($172 million) each.

That is down 17 per cent on figures quoted two years ago.

In the meantime, the same report shows the total cost of the Joint Strike Fighter program has leapt 8 per cent in the past three months, with each plane costing about $US95 million ($128 million), after stripping out development costs.

Separate figures from the US Government Accountability Office, released in March, showed the cost of the Joint Strike Fighters would be much higher for those, like Australia, who are buying planes produced early in the manufacturing cycle. Australia wants 100 planes and will order its first batch in 2010 for delivery in 2012.

According to the US figures, the average cost of Joint Strike Fighters produced this year will be $US125 million. That cost gradually decreases over the 20-year life of the program.

Air Commodore John Harvey, director-general of the RAAF's new air capability project, said the cost of the variant Australia is buying would average about $100 million, including support. Even at the lower price, the F-22A would be "twice the price" of the Joint Strike Fighter, he said.

While Defence was keeping a "watching brief" on the changing price, "nothing in our analysis has fundamentally changed", he said.

But Dr Jensen said the new US figures should ring alarm bells, especially as the Joint Strike Fighter - still under development - was untested and costs were likely to blow out further.

Labor's defence spokesman, Robert McClelland, said: "The Government should really re-examine its decision on the JSF. The [F-22A] Raptor has known capability, while the JSF's has yet to be determined."

_________________
Andy Evans Aviation Photography
www.evansaviography.co.uk
 View user's profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:     
Jump to:  
All times are GMT + 1 Hour
Post new topic   Reply to topic
View previous topic Log in to check your private messages View next topic