Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Raptor Claw: Yup, You are right on those points. A lot of R&D from the F-22 was used in the development of the F-35.

My point was giving up better LO capabilities. Everyone else is playing catch up in that arena, and it should stay that way.

F-16.net Sponsor

Raptor_claw wrote:

Lurch wrote:

As for a "Dumbed Down" version. I thought that was the F-35. The F-35 is a great platform (stop the spear throwing), but it's not the F-22.

Ummm, depends on what you mean by 'dumbed down'. If you mean capabilities like radar, avionics, communications, etc, the F-35 is 'Smarted-Up' compared to the F-22.

Edited: Forgot to mention HMD....

Well, the spear throwing is much needed. There have been so many advances in airframes since the F-16 to just roll out a "stupid" fat ugly duckling that takes advantage of nothing learned in the last 26+ years since the F-16. My god, it's like we went in REVERSE when LM and B rolled out their JSF designs. I can't remember, ever, the US going backwards instead of forwards with a new airframe. Why doesn't the JSF supercruise? Why doesn't it carry more than a pint sized load? The F-16 was an incremental advancement over the F-15.... The f-15 an advancement over the F-4, and on and on. Why in the world did we go backwards knowing full well that CH is not going to fill up our fleet with the -22s? Myself and others that I know believe it's entirely for politcal reasons.... I for one can come to NO logical conclusion on why we are getting an airframe that is dumned down from what we should have gotten. Unless someone in Skunk Works REALLY did learn how to build Wonder Woman's invisible jet (which I HIGHLY doubt) we are getting an aircraft which takes us in the wrong direction for our combined air forces. Aviation technology has not reached the point where there is nothing else to draw up that is an advancement over what we have now with the F-16s.

If money is so tight that we can't simply afford more F-22's (and that I doubt is the case) then why now start producing F-22's in a half-and-half mix of radar and no radar. The radar set on the Ratpor is a pretty penny and then some in terms of the per unit cost. Along with datalink capability we could build half with and half w/o radars in order to purchase more of the 22. Look with the datalink capability, the 22's with radar can simply beam over targeting info to those w/o radars and they can still fire off their 120s, plus still be very potent 'dogfighters' if needed.

The Raptor wasn't called the Raptor by mistake. Remember in JP1 when that hunter fellow had his eye on one of the dinosaurs all the while he was being targeted by another one which he didn't see? Corney, I know... I know... but the Raptor's name was chosen for a reason. Point being: we can build cheaper 22's. We do need more than 183.

If their goal wasn't to make a cheap stealth fighter then I'm sure the F-35 would be able to do more.

As for why we don't have more than 180-somthin Raptors.......I don't really know. From what I hear, the F-22 only cost 20 or 30 million more than the top of the line Eagles. I cant see why they can't get more than they are gettin now. Well I probably missed some important fact anyway.

BTW, you do know the Raptor wasn't named after the dinosaur, right?

Shonuff wrote:

If their goal wasn't to make a cheap stealth fighter then I'm sure the F-35 would be able to do more.

As for why we don't have more than 180-somthin Raptors.......I don't really know. From what I hear, the F-22 only cost 20 or 30 million more than the top of the line Eagles. I cant see why they can't get more than they are gettin now. Well I probably missed some important fact anyway.

BTW, you do know the Raptor wasn't named after the dinosaur, right?

Yeah, yeah... Bird of Prey or something. But the raptor dinosaur's tactics from JP1 fit with the 22's tactics....

If I would be the US government, I wouldn't export the F-22.
At least not for the first 15 or 20 years.
It's top secret technology, and once you export such a piece of equipment, you simply can't guaranty it remains secret.

If all my enemies had sticks, and I would be able to make myself a stick with nails in it, I bet my friends would say “Hey, how’d you do that, can I have one to?”
I would hand them sticks with just one nail in it, and I wouldn’t show them how I managed to put the nail in without ****** up the entire stick, and I would keep my multiple-nail stick for myself.
A little simplistic, but that’s how it’s done.

Export the F-35, not the F-22. Keep the best for yourself.
Period.

Given the current mood in Japan. they seem to be willing to take a more aggressive stance when it comes to their military.. there's even growing talk they will have their constitution amended so as not to limit them to a self-defense role. So we may yet see F-22s in Japanese colors. The world's 2ndlargest economy can afford them if they want them bad enough.

Oh right, almost forgot about North-Korea for a sec.

Everyday North Korea and China are pushing Japan to the right of center. Personally, its only a matter of time before Japan goes on a Military buying spree! With such systems like the F-22 and F-35 high on there list! That said, I do see the US exporting the Raptor to Japan but they won't let them build it under license. The Lightning on the otherhand could be contructed in Japan for a price................just my 2 cents!

If the USAF won't be able to buy enough F-22s to help it meet its commitments,it would likely welcome a trusted ally like Japan to have a force of Raptors that it could interoperate with in any conflict.

Well Japan is america's only ally that's close enough to China and North Korea. But to be honest, what's the point of giving Japan some "down-graded" F-22's? Once again america is trying to be world police where any crisis in the world they have to be a part of. For example, like China and Taiwan, a controversial topic. But to make it short, Taiwan does not want to be represented as past of the peoples republic of China and they're constantly trying to gain sovereignty. Kind of like how Quebec wants to be recognized as an independant nation, which they got, a few days ago by PM Steven Harper. But I don't think that's going to make a difference, they're just going to ask for more. But lets get back to topic, so America see's China as a threat to Taiwan so they step in. But why the hell would you want to step in to a conflict that you have no part of? It's none of their business and besides, what is China going to do, they'd be dumb enough to face the worlds most technologically advanced Military in the world. I did however hear on the news a few weeks ago that a U.S. battleship was around some sea or ocean close to China and so China sent a sub and followed them unnoticed and I think they followed the ship for a few days until they found out or so, not to sure about the details. From my point of view, I think Japan is a suck up to America, you know kind of like that guy at the office who meets and greets the CEO of a huge organization and brings him coffee and that kinda crap you get the idea.

Thanks
Brad

Master-of-Disaster wrote:

If I would be the US government, I wouldn't export the F-22.
At least not for the first 15 or 20 years.
It's top secret technology, and once you export such a piece of equipment, you simply can't guaranty it remains secret.

If all my enemies had sticks, and I would be able to make myself a stick with nails in it, I bet my friends would say “Hey, how’d you do that, can I have one to?”
I would hand them sticks with just one nail in it, and I wouldn’t show them how I managed to put the nail in without ****** up the entire stick, and I would keep my multiple-nail stick for myself.
A little simplistic, but that’s how it’s done.

Export the F-35, not the F-22. Keep the best for yourself.
Period.

The US currently doesn't have the resources to buy all of the F-22's that it needs. So, to supplement USAF F-22's with a small number of the same type sold to close US Allies (i.e. Japan, Australia, etc.) would be in the interests of the US Goverment and its Citizens.

Applause

Active Member Joined: Aug 28, 2006 - 05:58 AM Posts: 191

I think one more aggressive move by NK and Japan will be hotly after the F-22. They'll need a strong countermove and a message to the region that Japan will not sit idly by. Nothing today says "we're watching you" stronger than an airplane you can't see. A couple of more Aegis cruisers and a destroyer or two doesn't significantly affect the strategic balance like a wing of F-22's. Obviously they won't replace 91 F-4J's with 91 Raptors, but 48-72 is realistic.

Timing? Obviously immediately is out of the question. 5 years is too slow to be an effective countermove and too close to the F-35 arrival to make sense.

The concerns are generally as follows for the US-

1) technology transfer into the wrong hands.
2) letting the F-22's true capabilities "out of the bag"
3) premature closing of the F-22's assembly line.

How to mitigate those concerns:

1) Limited exports to select countries (Japan and Australia). Britain obviously won't, Israel might get it, but not until the end of the production run. To get them now would be too provocative and not necessary anyway. No other nations are realistic options in the short to intermediate future.
2) Export variants with reduced capabilities to control it's best secrets.
3) Special security procedures dictated to the buying country as part of any agreement (examples- remote basing, compartmentalization, etc.)
4) Late production models. By adding the Japanese order to the line 3 years down the road, the production time not only is extended, but other factor such as above are mitigated since in 3 years more will be known about the F-22 publicly and privately anyway. In three years there will be less to hide.

Note
A common Japan/Australia variant could be built to lower each countries purchase and operating costs. While the F-35 does make some sense for each country, each has a very critical issue that works against it and for the F-22- Range. (open ocean and lots of it). Obviously for Australia it's an even bigger issue. Look for them to possibly replace their F-111's with them.

bf-fly wrote:

I think one more aggressive move by NK and Japan will be hotly after the F-22. They'll need a strong countermove and a message to the region that Japan will not sit idly by. Nothing today says "we're watching you" stronger than an airplane you can't see. A couple of more Aegis cruisers and a destroyer or two doesn't significantly affect the strategic balance like a wing of F-22's. Obviously they won't replace 91 F-4J's with 91 Raptors, but 48-72 is realistic.

Timing? Obviously immediately is out of the question. 5 years is too slow to be an effective countermove and too close to the F-35 arrival to make sense.

The concerns are generally as follows for the US-

1) technology transfer into the wrong hands.
2) letting the F-22's true capabilities "out of the bag"
3) premature closing of the F-22's assembly line.

How to mitigate those concerns:

1) Limited exports to select countries (Japan and Australia). Britain obviously won't, Israel might get it, but not until the end of the production run. To get them now would be too provocative and not necessary anyway. No other nations are realistic options in the short to intermediate future.
2) Export variants with reduced capabilities to control it's best secrets.
3) Special security procedures dictated to the buying country as part of any agreement (examples- remote basing, compartmentalization, etc.)
4) Late production models. By adding the Japanese order to the line 3 years down the road, the production time not only is extended, but other factor such as above are mitigated since in 3 years more will be known about the F-22 publicly and privately anyway. In three years there will be less to hide.

Note
A common Japan/Australia variant could be built to lower each countries purchase and operating costs. While the F-35 does make some sense for each country, each has a very critical issue that works against it and for the F-22- Range. (open ocean and lots of it). Obviously for Australia it's an even bigger issue. Look for them to possibly replace their F-111's with them.

One of the "measures" that may make sense is to simply apply -- for better or for worse -- the F-35's stealth coating on the F-22. The F-35's coating is less secretive and it requires less maintenance and touch ups. It'll still be highly effective and it is no more "compromising" of stealth technology than F-35 exports which will happen en masse anyway.

Does Japan really need Raptors? Wouldn't say 100-150 or so F-35A's make more sense economically, capability, and security wise? Also, it'll be a sad day if Israel gets the F-22, it's bad enough that they're getting the F-35.

Forum: General F-22A Raptor forum

Will Japan be the first export customer?