Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

Andy, your quote from Mr Ingram is exactly what I posted with a couple of extra clauses which are:

1. any costs of transferring work between nations due to changes in workshare would be the reponsibility of the UK. In other words, if machine tools or engineers have to be relocated as work is relocated overseas then the UK pays to have that done.

2. whatever are these costs of moving work to other countries due to the cut in UK orders, the UK will not have to pay more than the original amount of the aircraft being cut. In other words there is a cap on these expenses.

So to restate: there are no penalty payments or anything like that. If the UK cuts their order, workshare is recalculated so that the UK gets less work in the future and the UK pays any costs in moving that work overseas.

So thank you for confirming my earlier statement.

I do not disagree that reducing Typhoon orders would be a huge blow to Bae but I think you go a little far in claiming the UK would be better off financially if the full 232 order is maintained.

According to the plans released by the RAF, they would be very little affected for a long time if 100 or so aircraft were deleted. There are simply not enough Typhoon squadrons in plan to justify 232. The Treasury is well aware of that and is very unlikely in my opinion to sign checks to buy dozens of extra $100m aircraft to be merely placed into storage.

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Tuckson wrote:

Hello

I'm french (you will note it because of my mistakes Confused

) and I think GB will not buy Rafale for it CVF.
GB spent a lot of money in JSF program and development of F-35 is too much advanced (aft fuselage and empennage build at Samlesbury, etc ...).
Even if Rafale is operational in F1 standard for french navy and F2 for the Air Force ... it is a dream for us Sad

For Political reasons I would have to agree that the Rafale is a no go in RN/RAF Service. That said, there is still a chance that the Rafale could win the MCRA contract with India. As she wants one type that is both capable of Landbase as well as Naval Operations! So, the Rafale could easily fit the bill...........of course it will have to compete with the very capable Super Hornet. The Rafale is clearly Superior in the Air Defense Roles. While the Super Hornet is a better Striker! Interesting.................. Rolling Eyes

Not necessarily Corsair (kicking up a storm here)... the major problem with the Rafale is that its radar is rubbish... especially compared to an AESA equipped Rhino. The PESA radar in the Rafale does not have a good detection range at all in a2a, although does have some very good a2g modes.

Andy

boff180 wrote:

Not necessarily Corsair (kicking up a storm here)... the major problem with the Rafale is that its radar is rubbish... especially compared to an AESA equipped Rhino. The PESA radar in the Rafale does not have a good detection range at all in a2a, although does have some very good a2g modes.

Andy

Well, you bring up some good points. Yet, India usually tweaks its aircraft purchases. So, a Rafale selection mite not be so bad........Further, the French have less strings than the Americans. Which, for a very independent country like India is a good thing! That said, my opinion is India is looking for a complete package and one that is both landbased and Carrier Capable! Personally, I would be surprised if the Super Hornet doesn't win. Of course India can be very unpredictable....................just my 2 cents! Rolling Eyes

FLY NAVY

India at the end of the day seems to put value for money first. Rafale's biggest problem is that it's too darned expensive. I think Dassault blew it big time in moving up market. It had the whole 2nd rung just below the yanks and a lot cheaper for decades with Mirage. Had the marketplace to themselves. No tin pot dictator was complete without a Mirage or 2 at the presidential airport. Got too cocky and figured they could join the big leagues with Rafale. Not working out right now.

RonO wrote:

India at the end of the day seems to put value for money first. Rafale's biggest problem is that it's too darned expensive. I think Dassault blew it big time in moving up market. It had the whole 2nd rung just below the yanks and a lot cheaper for decades with Mirage. Had the marketplace to themselves. No tin pot dictator was complete without a Mirage or 2 at the presidential airport. Got too cocky and figured they could join the big leagues with Rafale. Not working out right now.

Will the world fighter market is saturated right now. France biggest mistake was going alone and not joining the EuroFighter Program. Now she has to compete against the Russians, Europeans, and Americans........... Confused

That's an alternative point of view although building an aircraft with so many countries and ego's involved would not have been easy. Has there actually been a joint fast jet program with France that's actually worked well? I can only think of Jaguar & Alphajet and they're no great adverts. Doesn't France usually join then quit after learning everyone else's secrets?

RonO wrote:

That's an alternative point of view although building an aircraft with so many countries and ego's involved would not have been easy. Has there actually been a joint fast jet program with France that's actually worked well? I can only think of Jaguar & Alphajet and they're no great adverts. Doesn't France usually join then quit after learning everyone else's secrets?

France....joins and tries to run everything. Then quits........for some reason here partners. Don't seem to like that arranagement? Confused

I would agree that the Alphajet wasn`t a great success, even though 11 nations bought them the vast majority were bought by their Franco-German builders...

The Jaguar on the other hand was more successful, with 500+ sales. India alone bought 40, then locally built 100. India have just ordered 29 more at IM standard.

The Jaguar suffers from being underpowered, but it was designed to move mud. In GW1 RAF Jaguars were superb, with very good mission rates and successful strikes, as good as any coalition aircraft except the F-117 (Which did it all with PGMs).

The JAG` is a good example of a collaborative program, it was the first true bi-national fighter project, a good model for that collaboration and it was actually quite painless. The Jag` is a good, cheap strike fighter, as designed.

I am amazed the Typhoon is actually flying with a four nation development history. Things went more smoothly when France pulled out because they wanted a different animal. Germany nearly pushed over the apple cart though by threatening to pull out when they were in financial difficulties during re-unification or whilst trying to recover from it.

I have worked in Germany, few people outside realise what a great strain re-unification was financially for them. Germany was in REAL pain, for a long time afterwards as well.

snypa777 wrote:

I would agree that the Alphajet wasn`t a great success, even though 11 nations bought them the vast majority were bought by their Franco-German builders...

The Jaguar on the other hand was more successful, with 500+ sales. India alone bought 40, then locally built 100. India have just ordered 29 more at IM standard.

The Jaguar suffers from being underpowered, but it was designed to move mud. In GW1 RAF Jaguars were superb, with very good mission rates and successful strikes, as good as any coalition aircraft except the F-117 (Which did it all with PGMs).

The JAG` is a good example of a collaborative program, it was the first true bi-national fighter project, a good model for that collaboration and it was actually quite painless. The Jag` is a good, cheap strike fighter, as designed.

I am amazed the Typhoon is actually flying with a four nation development history. Things went more smoothly when France pulled out because they wanted a different animal. Germany nearly pushed over the apple cart though by threatening to pull out when they were in financial difficulties during re-unification or whilst trying to recover from it.

I have worked in Germany, few people outside realise what a great strain re-unification was financially for them. Germany was in REAL pain, for a long time afterwards as well.

Germany has did its share no doubt! That why I like collaboration like the Tornado, Typhoon, and JSF. Of course the politics, workshare, tech issues make it more complex............. Confused

Yep Corsair, I forgot about Tornado. Another success in it`s intended role although the program wasn`t without it`s headaches. Most big projects are now collaborations outside of the F-22 because they are so damn expensive.

I can`t see anybody building new 5 gen` fighters alone outside of the US without collaborative effort except maybe France.

Yes but the RAF could have had an F-16 like aircraft instead of the pitiful Jag.

snypa777 wrote:

Yep Corsair, I forgot about Tornado. Another success in it`s intended role although the program wasn`t without it`s headaches. Most big projects are now collaborations outside of the F-22 because they are so damn expensive.

I can`t see anybody building new 5 gen` fighters alone outside of the US without collaborative effort except maybe France.

Really, I don't get why so many are so excited over the JSF Program. The Tornado, Typhoon, and F-16 Programs has similar headaches. Further, except for a minor weight issue with the STOVL F-35B Model. The JSF Program is doing very well.............. Very Happy

Hey nice comment. In fact if you look at how far the F-35 has come in such a short time, it's setting all kinds of speed records.

RonO wrote:

Yes but the RAF could have had an F-16 like aircraft instead of the pitiful Jag.

This is new for me, can you tell us more about this F-16 alike plane, please.

Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

Rafale for the UK - Is it possible?