Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

Anglo-US defence deals in jeopardy

Tom McGhie and Jack Gee, Mail on Sunday 26 February 2006

Britain may consider buying up to 150 French fighter jets for two new-generation aircraft carriers scheduled to go into service with the Royal Navy in 2013.

If the Government went ahead with the £5bn deal, it would mean cancelling existing US contracts to supply aircraft for the carriers and could cause a major crisis in Anglo-American relations.

The unexpected verbal offer to buy the Rafale Marine jets came on January 24 when Defence Secretary John Reid met his opposite number, Michele Alliot-Marie, for crucial talks in London.

It followed well publicised difficulties between Britain and America on the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF) project, dogged by a row over sharing technology.

It is understood that Reid said he would consider the French offer. Even agreeing to give the proposal serious consideration could be seen as a major snub to the Americans, whose relations with the French on defence are strained.

The French offer follows America's continued refusal to agree to the transfer of advanced technology on the JSF - the jet being built in the US by Lockheed Martin with co-operation from Britain.

The Ministry of Defence has already paid the Americans £2bn for development. BAE Systems, Britain's leading defence contractor, which is a vital partner in the project, was hoping for about £14bn in development and production contracts.

The MoD declined to give details of the French offer, but defence sources in Paris confirmed that a lengthy conversation took place.

The American refusal to share technology means that if one of the JSFs needed repairs, the work would have to be carried out in America.

It would also mean British forces would not have the right codes to arm the planes if they wanted to use them for missions not approved by the Pentagon.

There is growing anger at the Americans' obduracy over technology transfer. Britain has now made it clear that without 'achieving the appropriate level of sovereignty' over the JSF, it will consider cancelling the contract.

Washington's reluctance to give up the technology to its closest military ally is fuelled by fears that Britain might allow foreign firms access to America's most precious commercial and defence secrets.

Faced by the the refusal to share technology, Lord Grayson, Minister for Defence Procurement, said: 'There has to be a Plan B. We need to make sure we have done the work needed to ensure we have an option.'

The MoD still hopes that the Americans will change their minds. Meanwhile, it is looking at its options. Giving consideration to the French offer could strengthen the MoD's negotiating hand with Washington.

The 60,000-tonne carriers planned for the Royal Navy are designed to have powerful catapults built into the deck. This means they are not restricted to the vertical take-off version of the JSF. They could fire conventional take-off JSFs as well as modified Typhoon Eurofighters.

The Rafale Marine is already in service and is designed for use on France's new carrier - identical to those being built for the Royal Navy.

The decision by Paris to buy the design of the UK carriers for their own second large carrier makes the French option more palatable.

The French jets cost about £35 million each and would be cheaper, if probably unpopular, with the forces.

Gerald Howarth, Conservative defence spokesman, said: 'This shows the danger of the American refusal to give us the technology. They could drive us into the arms of the French.'

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Quote:

Britain may consider buying up to 150 French fighter jets

Ridiculous - and this is to put it mildly

Would NEVER happen. If the JSF deal falls-and I don't think it will-the Brits would go for a navalized Typhoon. UK MoD is just making wawes-so to speak-in order to be sure that they get the maximum possible technology transfer-it's just as simple as that.

It could happen, however as RoAF said I don't think so!!!!

Would never happen !

RoAF .. Never say never...

Considering many Anglo-French joint projects in the past like Jaguar for example it is not very unlikely ...
Thales is the second largest defence contractor in the UK after Bae Systems and they are partners in huge future projects such as new aircraft carriers and UAV's .Airbus is going to supply tankers to RAF ..So why not RAFALE for the RN ..We don't know how attractive the French offer was..

"Never say never" works often in life but not so often in military hardware procurement. Maybe I overreacted in my previous post, but it's illogical to have 2 different types of 4th generation aircraft in comparable numbers (230 for Typhoon and 150 for Rafale)

Secondly Rafale is better than Typhoon at air to ground (now) but the Eurofighter is catching up, plus the Typhoon was designed from the start as an air superiority fighter, so it will always have an advantage over the Rafale in air to air combat, which is vital for a fleet protection aircraft.

This is the joke of the year 2006!!! Applause

Actually, it is quite plausible... its just that the news report got it drastically wrong.

It would never be 150 aircraft; that would assume that the Rafale would replace the RAF Harrier fleet aswell.

If we purchased some Rafales instead of F-35's for the carriers the number would be around 60-70. It isn't as far fetched as it seems aswell.

While I agree, a Navalised Typhoon is a better choice than Rafale; cost wise it isn't. Being the only navalised customer we would have to on our own front all the development and testing costs which would be quite a lot; probably resulting in a costing close to that of the F-35. The Rafale on the other hand is an off-the-shelf purchase that would be MUCH cheaper. Remember they are buying the design of the HMS Queen Elizebeth and HMS Prince of Wales; it may be used to help sweeten the deal.

What would replace the RAF Harriers if we did pull out of JSF? Well while I do agree a VTOL capability should be retained I can see two possible ways they would replace the fleet. Option 1) More Typhoons, we say we need less... well here's where the surplus will go. Option 2) The replacement for the Tornado GR.4 (was called FOAS, that project has now been cancelled and replaced); this is more than likely going to be a stealth smart UCAV of nearly indigenous design. Whose to say it can't be fitted with VTOL in some form or another?

Then again the day we buy something thats 100% French is the day I stop hating the french Wink

i.e. never

Andy

RoAF wrote:

Quote:

Britain may consider buying up to 150 French fighter jets

Ridiculous - and this is to put it mildly

Would NEVER happen. If the JSF deal falls-and I don't think it will-the Brits would go for a navalized Typhoon. UK MoD is just making wawes-so to speak-in order to be sure that they get the maximum possible technology transfer-it's just as simple as that.

Right on. No overreaction here. The Rafale is not the interceptor Typhoon is. I actually think the Rafale is a decent enough jet. I don`t think the UK will pull out of the JSF either. I firmly believe UK posturing is just maneuvering to get a better economic deal in the future, more so than a tech` transfer issue.

Why would the UK buy a jet nobody else wants?

1. An entirely French aircraft. No UK builds. No UK company input.
2. We sometimes re-engine foreign aircraft. More expense.
3. The Future CVF will be delayed even more to fit catapult system. They will not come with catapults even though space will be left to fit them.
4. UK avionics fitted? More expenditure.
5. Money already invested in JSF $2 Billion . More money has already been spent on JSF than this by us.
6. Believe it or not, carrier integration and feasibility was done a LONG time ago in the early days of Typhoon development. France only pulled out when the capability wasn`t going to be included in final design. Don`t know whether this makes it more likely that we will see a Typhoon M.
7. France has cut back on it`s total procurement of Rafale. Development of Rafale is not as rapid as we think. Although that may change if we choose to buy. We will end up paying for that.
8. No commonality. JSF AND Rafale for RAF and RN respectively.

Andy, someone may make me eat my words, but Rafale M is a long shot.

Just politics! All of the Partners want more work share and more access! Personally, I wouldn't be surprised to see the GE F-136 put back into the JSF Program. Which, would save face somewhat for both the US and UK. Confused

Is it possible? ANYTHING is possible. Is it PROBABLE? I wouldn't bet any money on it.

Quote:

BAE says JSF better than Eurofighter for UK carriers and dismisses Rafale rumour...

Tue Feb 28, 2006 10:34 AM ET

British defence firm BAE Systems on Tuesday called the idea of developing a naval version of the Eurofighter combat jet a "fallback" and said the best plane for UK aircraft carriers remained the Joint Strike Fighter (JSF).

Expected delays in the U.S.-led JSF programme have sparked speculation that Britain may look to pull out of the project, the single biggest military plane programme in history, and turn to other aircraft.

"I'm sure there will be delays," BAE Chief Executive Mike Turner told the Defence Committee of the UK House of Commons.

"It is indeed possible to navalise the Eurofighter but it is not what we would recommend. It is very much a fallback solution."

He dismissed the idea, raised in a weekend media article, that the UK might look to the French-built Rafale fighter jet from Dassault Aviation (AVMD.PA: Quote, Profile, Research) for its carrier-based fleet.

Turner said the JSF was the best plane for deploying on two aircraft carriers which the UK is expected to enter into service around the middle of the next decade.

Europe's largest defence firm, BAE is involved in building both the JSF and the Eurofighter, as well as the carriers.

Source: http://yahoo.reuters.com/stocks/QuoteCo ... 18_L284275

Quite a misleadig article. Example:

Quote:

The American refusal to share technology means that if one of the JSFs needed repairs, the work would have to be carried out in America.

Pure speculation same as the speculation I heard that the UK would get a depot for repairs and upgrades.

Quote:

It would also mean British forces would not have the right codes to arm the planes if they wanted to use them for missions not approved by the Pentagon

What does this mean? The UK and every other nation needs permission every time they want to arm up and train, of deploy to the Falklands? Perhaps like a Boomer the right codes have to be given by the president before the weaponry will work. Very Happy

I think not! what a ridiculous thought.

I think these hysterical propaganda releases to writers that don't know what they are writing about , or the background of the story will be in the long run thought of as counterproductive to the UK's goals. I'd imagine the threats from what amounts to impractical buffoons are annoying at best to the US congress.

To be honest the loss of the UK's order wouldn't be that big a deal to the program.It benefits the UK much more than the US. As it is the UK has done some work on stealth of their own but they are nowhere near the US which has invested 30+ years and over a trillion dollars into stealth, plus our expertise in AESA radars etc.. Yeah, go ahead and keep these silly threats coming UK. JL Raleigh NC

The_Mastiff wrote:

Quite a misleadig article. Example:

Quote:

The American refusal to share technology means that if one of the JSFs needed repairs, the work would have to be carried out in America.

Pure speculation same as the speculation I heard that the UK would get a depot for repairs and upgrades.

Quote:

It would also mean British forces would not have the right codes to arm the planes if they wanted to use them for missions not approved by the Pentagon

What does this mean? The UK and every other nation needs permission every time they want to arm up and train, of deploy to the Falklands? Perhaps like a Boomer the right codes have to be given by the president before the weaponry will work. Very Happy

I think not! what a ridiculous thought.

I think these hysterical propaganda releases to writers that don't know what they are writing about , or the background of the story will be in the long run thought of as counterproductive to the UK's goals. I'd imagine the threats from what amounts to impractical buffoons are annoying at best to the US congress.

To be honest the loss of the UK's order wouldn't be that big a deal to the program.It benefits the UK much more than the US. As it is the UK has done some work on stealth of their own but they are nowhere near the US which has invested 30+ years and over a trillion dollars into stealth, plus our expertise in AESA radars etc.. Yeah, go ahead and keep these silly threats coming UK. JL Raleigh NC

It's all politics. The UK needs the F-35B for its CVF's and has no
real alterative! Including the French Rafale....................The plain truth is the JSF Project will likely be the biggest fighter contract. Since the F-4 Phantom II of the 60's and 70's. Everybody is fighting for a piece of the pie and the pie is BIG! Twisted Evil

Corsair, everybody IS fighting for a piece of the pie, that`s right. BAE chief exec` Mike Turner has just rubbished the Rafale idea, but he would, wouldn`t he!

One interesting note is that the UK may well end up with a surplus of Typhoon fighters. We are obliged to purchase the remaining fighters in the order. Foreign orders may take care of that though, we could just sell the surplus jets to a new customer.
Norway is considering pulling the plug on JSF. They signed some sort of agreement with EADS on Eurofighter some time ago. Spin off contracts I believe. They will be very familiar with the program and Typhoon is favourite for them, possibly. I think Norway has about 60 F-16s they will be replacing at some point. There is nothing definite about them pulling the ripcord on JSF OR a replacement though. Perhaps a Norwegian or two can comment?

The problem with a Typhoon M is the visibility issue, some people believe. The canards get in the field of view with the AOA used on a carrier landing? I talked to someone whom has sat in a Typhoon cockpit, they said that you can only see the tips of the canards anyway so I don`t know where the visibility thing comes from....

On the tech` transfer issue. I know the issue covers stealth tech` etc, but I believe it is a bit of a red herring in one respect. This source code issue...

The Trident missiles that go faulty are returned to the US for servicing. Might be the same for TLAM. The UK doesn`t have the source codes for TLAM or C-130 J. I wouldn`t have thought we have codes for Trident or any of the other systems. Truth is I am not certain but it seems unlikely. Do you think the French will give us source codes for Rafale? I think not. Same problem different aircraft. Like you said Corsair, it may be all about business.

Hello

I'm french (you will note it because of my mistakes Confused

) and I think GB will not buy Rafale for it CVF.
GB spent a lot of money in JSF program and development of F-35 is too much advanced (aft fuselage and empennage build at Samlesbury, etc ...).
Even if Rafale is operational in F1 standard for french navy and F2 for the Air Force ... it is a dream for us Sad

Forum: F-35 versus XYZ

Rafale for the UK - Is it possible?