Forum: F-22A Raptor

Last edited by TC on Feb 23, 2006 - 05:15 AM; edited 1 time in total

Tsk. Tsk. Tengu. I must say amigo; I normally agree with a lot of the things you say, but you've helped take this thread WAY Off Topic

I shouldn't have to remind you that the ROKs are still our allies. We still have several allied bases and camps there, and the ROKs have proven to be a valuable help to us in many operations, from Korea and Vietnam, up to the present day. We also have several South Korean friends on this site. Please refrain from alienating them.

Now, if we want to get back On Topic

I can solve that, and wrap the thread up, all at once.

The topic is F-22 FMS sales, right? Ok, well just like I said a couple of times before...Up until last summer, when I was still with LM, there was absolutely NO talk of Raptor FMS sales. None. Notta. Nyet. Zip. Zilch. Hell, we were still (just as we are today) trying to get Congressional approval for an just an adequate number of American jets, let alone trying to sell to a foreign country! Rolling Eyes

Another point: the F-22 (unlike the previous generation jets) was never designed with FMS in mind. Here's a plane that no one has yet mentioned for the FMS market, and which seems a lot more logical (and realistic)...The Super Hornet. If the Japanese do get a 5th Gen L-O fighter, they would realistically get the F-35.

Final point: Consider the source of that article. It does not come from LM, or the USAF. It is a 3rd-party website, which legally qualifies it as nothing more than hearsay. Now, if some official source from LM or the AF wishes to confirm or deny any of this information, please do so.

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Your right TC, I didnt mean to offend any of our S. Korean friends on here but you have to admit the uprise in anti-american sentiment in S. Korea has really exploded lately.

I dont mean to take the thread off topic but my point is; the region is not as politically stable as they would have you think. And Japan as our staunchest ally since WW2, we should be determined to help them. Actually I just lopped off the tip of my index finger playing w/ my pocket knife so im going to go since its getting hard to type. Ill pick this up later.

-Aaron

Last edited by zeroyon04 on Feb 23, 2006 - 06:53 PM; edited 1 time in total

I know this question is a bit Off Topic

but I want to ask it...

Which fighter would be better for Japan? The F-35A or the F-22A?

Japan currently can't make use of the F-35B or F-35C since it is not allowed to carry any aircraft carriers due to article 9 in their constitution.

What would make the the F-35A a better choice over the F-22A?

Positives
1) cheap, can buy a few for the price of one raptor
2) better A2G capability. Anti-shipping is very important to japan, but they recently built 80 F-2's for this specific role
3) should be a formidible A2A fighter, should take care of mostly anything else in the reigon
4) already designed for export
Negatives
1) not nearly as capable as the F-22A in the A2A role
2) would most likely not possess the deep strike capability that the F-22A does. Lets face it, if Japan gets attacked (most probably by DPRK), they need to be able to fight back. The only aircraft I see being able to penetrate the air defences in North Korea is the F-22A (just take a look at the area around the Yongbyon reactor in North Korea on Google Earth. There are over 30 SAM sites with 8-12 missile batteries a piece!)
3) japan needs a long range fighter to cover its HUGE amount of water territory, the F-22A has a much longer range
4) with China becoming a major power in the reigon, Japan seems like it might want a technologically superior fighter to still establish its military strength in the reigon
5) they would have the same fighter as South Korea, and as being huge rival countries, the Japanese would surely appreciate that they have something superior A2A

can anyone else think of any other positives or negatives?

Japan has always seemed to want top-of-the-line technology when they chose the F-15 and F-2 fighters for their air defence.

To the people who say the F-22A is "overkill", remember that it might not be 10 years from now with what China is doing. You never want a fair fight in war anyways, you want to decimate the enemy.

Also, im curious... IF Japan does get the F-22A, what do you think the reaction will be in South Korea and China? There is always public outcry from them even when Japan builds just a small missile boat, Im sure there will be HUGE nation-wide unrest in those countries if Japan gets the F-22A (towards Japan AND the USA). Can any Chinese or Korean forum members comment on this? (whithout turning this into a discussion about WWII or war crimes please)

I didn't want to further participate in such a volatile topic that has gone way off topic in areas, but I want to add and emphasize somethings.

I was about to bring up the issue of the source of the article, but TC has just brought it up. The article is not from an official U.S. or Lockheed Martin source. Seems like the article was written just to entice debate or wishful thinking or something. Sure, LM themselves would love to sell everything they can, but they don't make that decision.

There are no official statements or stance with the U.S. in exporting the F-22, either in it's current form or a downgraded version. As I said before, the F-22 was never designed for export. And even to consider it would have to gut it out or a major internal change will have to be made. Either way, that will cost time and money. Will the U.S. accept or abosrb that? Heck no! Will Japan put up the dough? Sure they have it, but will they? And this isn't as simple a modification as customizing the Boeing F-15E into S. Korea's F-15K or Singapore's F-15SG, or LM's F-16 into the UAE's F-16 Block 60s. And none of these planes are "cheap".

Also, why the heck are we even there if Japan has the ability to defend itself and punch above their weight with the very best weapon system like the F-22? Also, like it has been mentioned before, Japan's military is strictly defensive in nature. It's constitution bars them to going overseas in a hostile manner to prevent something like their actions in WW2 (only exception recently is their peacekeeping efforts in Iraq, and again that is a "peacekeeping effort"). If something breaks out in North Korea or something, Japan is already questionable in assisting in a military nature as it'll go against their constitution. So much for all the time, effort, and wasted funds in developing their F-22s! Rolling Eyes

If something happens in the region, that is why we have a a lot of military presence there.

As I mentioned before and what some agree here, the F-35A CTOL seems more to fit their needs than the F-22. The F-35A is considered to have the highest performance of the three versions other than range (and it's range is just slightly lower than the F-35C which ahs the highest). It will have A2G capabilities and it's A2A is beyond anything in the region. And most importantly, it is designed for export.

One thing I dont think is stressed enough is weather we are there or not it should have no bearing on Japans procurment of arms. No country should have to rely on another country for its own defense. Unless the US is willing to send a permanant military force there that matches the size and strength of everything in the region and is under the command of the Japanese gov't than we really shouldnt object to what they decide to buy if it's available to them. I mean, lets think about what our presence really means there? Do you rely on the cops to protect you in everyday life? Sure, untill you get mugged and you realise they didnt show up untill after the fact. Defense should be the responsibility of the individual. (Or in this case, the nation.)

To answer some of your questions Scorpion, yes, I do think Japan would fund the modification of the F-22 similarily to how they funded the F-2 and other Aerospace projects. Japan has always been a firm believer in Air Power and I've noticed a trend that theyll go quite a bit out of the way to procure it. Also, as said earlier, Japans main air-earth concern is ships, as theyre AF is defensive and nature, and they did just build the F-2 for that. But more than that, I think Japan needs a good strong A-A fighter since the F-15s it has are just not that anymore.

Either way, to sum it up, its not really in our control to begin with. If the US believes Japan should have the F-22 like they believe the UAE should have our ports :p Wink

(sorry had to throw it in! haha) than Japan will ultimately decide what is better for their nature. One thing I've also noticed is Japan likes to control rights to production of all its A/C. I think its fair to say if Japan is allowed to have F-22s it wont be allowed to manufacture them. Same thing for F-35s initially too.

-Aaron

Quote:

What would make the the F-35A a better choice over the F-22A?

negatives
6)To replace the aging F-4EJs, the procurement should start at least in 2009. I don’t think that F-35 is in time for their request.

F-35 is basically optimized for air to ground. I am not sure that F-35 can take care of anything there will be in the near future. As for air to air, is it better than F/A-18E, Rafale or Typhoon?

Alrescha wrote:

Quote:

What would make the the F-35A a better choice over the F-22A?

negatives
6)To replace the aging F-4EJs, the procurement should start at least in 2009. I don’t think that F-35 is in time for their request.

F-35 is basically optimized for air to ground. I am not sure that F-35 can take care of anything there will be in the near future. As for air to air, is it better than F/A-18E, Rafale or Typhoon?

They already have something to replace the F-4EJ. It's called the F-2.

The F-2's larger purpose was to replace the F-1's. Since the JASDF was not allowed to build as many of the F-2's as they would have liked because of cost, there are still a large number of outdated F-4's sitting there on the flight line.

-Aaron

I have put a lot of thought into this even before this post. Many here know my contempt for most FMS deals. However I sincerely believe that the F-22 is the correct airframe for not only Japan...... but...... Austrailia.

Where the best weapon is the one you never ever have to use, putting a no-peer group A-A platform in the hands of the Japanese is extra money in the bank for any geo-political peace of mind.

I often think the JSF is the wrong weapon for Austrailia and my feeling on that.... ( Forgive me Aussies,... I'm a damn American Laughing

) is just look at a map. Range and response time are what the F-22 is all about. Where small as the quantity of airframes are.... Which would you rather be naked due to an adverse stealth event when facing a SU-3x..... a JSF or an F-22? F-22 even without stealth offers performanace...... and also a form of detererance. Not to mention two engines over water is much more comfy when you are at cruise eating your boxed lunch than one engine. At the end of the day the JSF is still a one engine jet. Where it will be in small numbers in the Aussie service. Where we have a ton of one engine jets... and it is normal business for us to dump a hand full of them per year. So "cost" has many ways of looking at cost of ownership. Once you have air domination over a threat area, you can do what ever you want. I just don't see the JSF in Aussie hands... as being some great solution to defense needs. F-22 is "expensive". But you will probably still have most of the airframes sitting around by the time they are replaced. Aussie defense dollars are thin enough. So best to buy quality firepower.

Um....NO!! is my answer..........

Quote:

3) japan needs a long range fighter to cover its HUGE amount of water territory, the F-22A has a much longer range

Quote:

Range and response time are what the F-22 is all about.

While I am a big Raptor fan, I can't stop noticing that the Raptor's range is similar with F 35 one in subsonic and inferior if the Raptor's profile includes an 100 Nmiles supesonic dash. In subsonic both can do something around 600 Nmiles...

The internal fuel of:

F-22A: 9,200~9.300 kg

F-35A: 8,200 kg+

F-35C: 8,800 kg+

Raptor has only 5~13% more fuel than JSF, but it has one more engine to feed, so it is very natural that Raptor's subsonic range won't be longer than JSF...........

The range of F-22 will become relatively impressive when it supercruises at the height of 40,000ft+ with the speed of 1.5~1.8 Mach+. JSF needs A/B to achieve this kind of speed, and the SFC of engine with A/B thrust is 2+ times more than the SFC of same enigine with military thrust.

[quote="TenguNoHi"]No country should have to rely on another country for its own defense ... Defense should be the responsibility of the individual. (Or in this case, the nation.)

With respect, I believe politics are more complicated than that. Countries have vested interests not only in other countries, but in specific relations between countries as well. There are reasons that the US maintains a strong military presence in countries aside from the desire to protect those counties. The US military presence also signals that the US has a strong interest in the region and that they will balance the emergence of a regional competitor in the area. Therefore, the US military presence in Korea and in Japan isn't exclusively to protect these allies, it's a powerful message to China that the US is not handing over political influenece in that area. The US also gets something out of this: It gets to play a big role in a place far from its shores.

Mike

A country defends it`s interests on other peoples shores first rather than on it`s own beaches! This has been the foreign policy of the US, Russia (Warsaw pact), for many years. The US wanted NATO members to spend more on their own defences while retaining firm control from Washington....Simply put I know, the US has a military presence all over the world. Unless the US goes all isolationist, that`s not going to change....It is in the interests of the US to retain a military presence in the region for security and economic reasons. That is stating the obvious I, wonder though if the US is at all nervous about the thought of Japan having a powerful independent military? I think that Japan is nervous about that, hence their constitution...

If Japan doesn`t take or isn`t allowed to have the F-22, what do you guys think of an alternative? Euro-canards? Hell, even SU-xxx?( probably never happen)...

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Air Force plans to sell F-22As to allies