Forum: F-22A Raptor

MICAP said

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Japan and Korea don't have the military strength or luster to repel any sizeable attack

I wouldn't say so. South Korea has 180 F-16 (Block 32, 52) and Japan has more than 200 F-15s and around 80 F-2 (out of 130 ordered), not counting the older F-1, F-4 and F-5. Each one of them could easily repel a North Korean attack and could hold their own against China. No one else in the region could mount a seizable attack against them (USSR is long gone and Russia has other problems now).
You also said

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F-22s for Japan would not make sense as U.S. forces aren't going anywhere.

Well they won't go anywhere now but what about 10,15 or 20 years from now?You can't say for sure, the world is constantly changing and so are US interests.

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hey Des,

Cheers mate!! ready and willing to go!!!! just need to find the time to get off of work Confused

Beautiful country. maybe someday. here are some photos i snapped of the JSF mockup while working in Holland.

hey Des,

Cheers mate!! ready and willing to go!!!! just need to find the time to get off of work Confused

Beautiful country. maybe someday. here are some photos i snapped of the JSF mockup while working in Holland.

RoAF wrote:

MICAP said

Quote:

Japan and Korea don't have the military strength or luster to repel any sizeable attack

I wouldn't say so. South Korea has 180 F-16 (Block 32, 52) and Japan has more than 200 F-15s and around 80 F-2 (out of 130 ordered), not counting the older F-1, F-4 and F-5. Each one of them could easily repel a North Korean attack and could hold their own against China. No one else in the region could mount a seizable attack against them (USSR is long gone and Russia has other problems now).
You also said

Quote:

F-22s for Japan would not make sense as U.S. forces aren't going anywhere.

Well they won't go anywhere now but what about 10,15 or 20 years from now?You can't say for sure, the world is constantly changing and so are US interests.

Not neccessarily.... North Korea does have a handful of Mig-29s and no F-4, F-1 or F-5 is going to hold that forever. Sure they may not have a perfect combat record but if you take a sizeable for of them and put them against a sizeable force of last generation A/C and you see.

The F-2 is an abomination. Its pretty, its one of my favrite A/C.... but it was costly and turned out to be a maintanance nightmare. They have 80 of them; Id be surprised if they could get 10 in the air in case of war.

The F-15s are limited and aging in Japan. Most of their F-15s are older than our F-15s even. They are the pride and joy of the JASDF but I cant see them lasting much longer.

South Koreas F-16s are also an important assett if S. Korea decided to be involved, but lets face it... you could have all that air power and defend yourself, but how bloody would it be.

Also, China, now has the Su-30MKI, AND PRODUCTIN RIGHTS. They are manufacturing their own. This is important because it means that in a war China has a renewable A/C supply. Japan's is limited to the F-2. (If their production is even open)

Also, tennant of warfare, there is no defense only attack. Japan is put in spoiling position by not being allowed to attack the enemy. Its like basketball, you may have the best defense in the world, but if you have no offense, that is, noone at the court when your team has possession of the ball... your NEVER going to win the game, and eventually the other team will score. I've thought of a great historical example to review Japan's position and that is the Battle of Britain. Sure the Brits defended themselves quite valiantly and ultimately won, but what became of the cities bombed? Who wants ANY losses in war? Not to mention Britain had a sharpened edge in the BOB, because they had Radar and they had the knowledge that Germans didnt know they had Radar. Even more so though its a great comparison because they compare a major industrial power against a boxed and limited island nation.

I think Japans defensive position puts them in a terrible disadvantage in war and thats why they need a supperior weapon. Japan is basically at the mercy of waiting for the other nation to get tired and admit defeat. Ever won a fist fight without throwing a punch? Its pretty difficult...

-Aaron

Heres just some statistics I found on North Korea, China and Japan to further the discussion.

NORTH KOREA

North Korea has the world's sixth largest military. It is the most militarized nation in proportion to population (estimated at 22 million).

1,022,000 military personel.

Military spending is $5.1 billion (2001 estimate) or over 30 percent of GDP.

Though North Korea has not declared itself a nuclear power, the U.S. says Pyongyang has admitted to possessing nuclear weapons.

U.S. intelligence estimates North Korea has enough weapons grade plutonium for two to five nuclear devices.

The U.S. also says it believes North Korea has began reprocessing spent nuclear fuel rods which, if successful, could contain enough plutonium to produce between six to 12 nuclear weapons.

Possesses 1,700 Air Craft including 780 Fighters. This includes 98 Mig-29s and 98 Mig-23s. The rest is made up of Mig-21s, Yak-23s, Su-25s and a few others.

CHINA

2,250,000 Military Personel

951 Combat A/C
J-10 ~25 (Full productions slated this year)
Su-30MKK/MK2 100
Su-27 76
J-8 300
J-7 ~450

JAPAN

Defense is the responsibility of the US; launch support facility is part of the Ronald Reagan Ballistic Missile Defense Test Site (RTS) administered by US Army Space and Missile Defense Command (SMDC) (Just learned this. However, there is nothing keeping the US in and the Japanese are still tied to Article 9.)

May not own nuclear weapons or offensive arms.

246,400 Military Personel

330 Combat Air Craft.
-80 F-2A/B
-213 F-15D/DJ
-154 F-4EJ
-77 F-1

(About those numbers; my guess is the F-4s and F-1s dropped off shortly after 2001 which is when those statistics were published. The reason is the 330 number came from Wikipedia which is usually spot on with numbers. The numbers above add to 524 which means 154 A/C must have been retired. The F-4?)

Can produce F-15J/DJs, F-1s and F-2s, depending on the status of the production lines currently.

US FORCES IN JAPAN

??? Combat Air Craft
80 F-15C/Ds (KADENA AB)
?? F-16C/Ds (MISAWA AB) (STBYGAIN?)

-Aaron

Interesting Statistics there. Japan is terribly outgunned in shear numbers but has better technology overall. Also, I only listed Fighter A/C but Japanese fighters must be concerned with bombers as well. I didn't bother putting those.

-Aaron

TenguNoHi said

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North Korea does have a handful of Mig-29s and no F-4, F-1 or F-5 is going to hold that forever

I never matched MiG-29s with those aircraft, but with South Korea's F-16s
and

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Possesses 1,700 Air Craft including 780 Fighters. This includes 98 Mig-29s and 98 Mig-23s

South Korea's 180 Vipers are an overkill for the 34 MiG-29s and 45 MiG-23s the north has. I got my numbers from here:
http://www.acig.org/artman/publish/article_178.shtml
You also said

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Also, China, now has the Su-30MKI, AND PRODUCTIN RIGHTS. They are manufacturing their own. This is important because it means that in a war China has a renewable A/C supply

1. They have the license for the Su-27 (locally designated as J-11, 100 built out of 200 until now), not for the Su-30
2. Fighters aren't built any more like Hurricanes or Spitfires. My guess is that any war will be long over before they build 5-10 jets (1-2 months)

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I think Japans defensive position puts them in a terrible disadvantage in war and thats why they need a supperior weapon

I'm 100% with you on this one

Guys, more on Chinese SU-27s...
They have built around 100 jets and won`t build any more... The SU-27 built in China is the air superiority version and has little or no A2G capability. More importantly for China, it has no anti ship missile capability which they were not happy about. This is the reason they are buying SU-30s... Russia resisted selling the SU-30 to China for a while but changed her mind. I got this all from "China News Daily".

China also wanted the TU-160 Blackjack bomber. Russia said a big NO. This would dramatically alter the balance of power in the region....
.

The chinese Su-27 have some A2G capabilities (dumb iron bombs and unguided rockets). The chinese were also unsatisfied because the russians didn't gave them the source codes for the radar and the computer, and the chinese couldn't replicate them, nor some key parts of the hardware (the radar mainly). These Su can't use chinese made A2A missiles, and the engines aren't reliable enough.....but I think we're going Off Topic

I dont think any of the above alters Japan's defensive situation. Also, I think India is selling the Su-30s to China not Russia, although Im sure it still requires Russia's approval.

-Aaron

If the Chinese couldn`t get source code, computer access, radar parts, unreliable engines....Why would it be any different with the SU-30?

The Su-30 is true multi-role, the SU-27 is not. None of us may know the real reason but this seems more logical.....We are allowed to go off-topic sometimes Very Happy

Thought a bit about what TC said....Japan wouldn`t want a watered down F-22, it depends on how much it is dumbed down. However, has Japan EVER needed to USE a top of the range air superiority fighter in the last 50 years?? Nope..

In the present climate, Japan doesn`t need the F-22 with the allies Japan has right now.
Now, as Aaron said, if things change in 10, 15 years, we can ask that question again. Don`t forget, 50 years of stability is not to be sniffed at. If Japan didn`t have ANY defensive forces at all over the last half century, the country would still be untroubled because of the cover it has from allies....In fact, Japan had little in the way of a defence force for years after WW2.

An army navy and an airforce however, make people feel warm and cosy at night.

TenguNoHi wrote:

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Also, I think India is selling the Su-30s to China not Russia

Could you please give us the source of this info? Because it sounds unbelievable to me

RoAF wrote:

TenguNoHi wrote:

Quote:

Also, I think India is selling the Su-30s to China not Russia

Could you please give us the source of this info? Because it sounds unbelievable to me

Sure that`s just a typo`! India and China are not the best of friends Wink

China has pis@@d India off by apparently helping Pakistan with it`s nuclear program. This also nicely keeps India locked in a staring contest with Pakistan and away from wider regional interests!

Certainly, I believe it as the Su-30 section of http://www.fas.org

Said something about the Indians developing the Su-30MKI and then the Su-30MKK for China which was similar but tweaked slightly different to China's needs. I might have misread it wrong just check it out for yourself. Like I said above "I think."

Also, what does anyone think about the claims of China developing a 5th Geration J-14 or something like that?

I think in 15 years we are going to see a sizeable increase in China's air power, starting with the replacement of older 3rd Gen A/C and eventually the purchase of some 5th Gen A/C from SOMEWHERE. I attribute this to China's growing economy which would require a strong military to support its overseas assetts.

N Korea is probably a different story and is the other way around. Also? How many of you guys have ever looked at S Korea as a threat? Its not totally outstanding,... most South Koreans hate Americans and hate Westerinization, attributing the divide in Koreas as OUR fault. This is important because in the east Japan is seen as a land mark nation of Westernization. The growing generation of young people in S Korea have an absolute distaste for Americans and especially it's military presence in Korea, thinking that they dont need it and they could repel N. Korea on their own; furthermore, that S. Korea should stop worrying about protecting itself and work with N. Korea over a reunified nation. A lot of far eastern analyst see a reunification of the Koreas far more eminant than with China and Taiwan because of the closing gap in how their sentiments are becoming. I've even heard the numbers quoted within 15 years.

-Aaron

Forum: F-22A Raptor

Air Force plans to sell F-22As to allies