Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

I figured it was about time that the Wonder Lemon had its own thread. Despite being ill-conceived, very unorthodox, and not really even being a fighter, it could still be counted on when the Sierra hit the fan. So, I thought I'd kick this one off with a question about the 'Vark...

I've seen footage of the early 111s, where the pilot had to manually set the wing sweep, with the aid of a trigger-shaped device. Was Auto Wing-Sweep (i.e., the F-14) ever incorporated into the later models of the F-111?

Thanks in advance for the answer, and start posting away about this jet (this includes the A through G, FB, and EF models). Hopefully, our Aussie friends will get in on this too!

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

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TC,

While I can't answer your questions, I thought I'd contribute a little bit from today's outing to Nellis Cool

.

Enjoy Very Happy

!

Last edited by Gums on Feb 23, 2006 - 05:57 PM; edited 1 time in total

snifff........sniffff.....hmmmmm....something in the water?

BITE!!!!! AAAAArrrrrgh!!!

So TC has another few hours to waste, huh? But these could be "good" hours.

********************

So's we return to those golden days of yesteryear. When men were men, women were women, true warriors drew blood at the point of a spear, or with a knife, they rode one-heart beasts (not side-saddle, either), and so forth.

Lo' a fresh lackey for the new King thinks ....... (this is REALLY SCARY, as his last effort was the Edsel!)

He determines that there is no longer a need for the warriors to ride into battle on a one-heart steed. In fact, we might even have two warriors upon a great, new steed. A beast with TWO hearts!! A large beast. A fast beast.

Modern battle shows us that we no longer must slay the enema with our trusty Randall knife inside a telephone booth. Nay. We can destroy him from many furlongs away using new, accurate weapons launched from afar. And concepts such as close air support won't work in the new, nuke-u-lar age.

And so we shall develop new concepts of aerial warfare as well as two new steeds upon which our warriors shall ride ( and one day, we shall no longer require the warriors to ride at all! heh heh).

To provide such beasts, we must build them to serve both the warriors who sleep with the sheep, errrrr, Marines.... as well as those who have grown accustomed to having a cool hootch and nubile natives at their beck and call, away from the mortar and rocket attacks, on solid ground, a real bar closeby.

The newest steed shall be called the Tactical Fighter Experimental (TFX) until we find an appropriate name. We shall also use the new excellent fleet interceptor found on the floating islands to equip the spoiled warriors who refuse to land on a football field in the midst of a storm at night. We shall change the name of this beast and require that the extra saddle be manned by would-be warriors. We shall call it ..... errrrr... we shall call it, yeah, that's it, the Double Ugly, errrr, Phantom.

And while we're at it, I am confused by all the naming conventions for the Squid, errrr.... Nasal Radiator planes. Henceforth, all planes will follow a simple designation procedure, starting with "4", err..... "110", errr..... So the new jet shall be called the "F-4C" for the Squids and the "F-110" for the wimps who refuse to land on football fields during a thunderstorm. We'll figure out what to call the TFX once we decide to buy the thing.

STOP!!!!! I have to attend a Senate Armed Services Committee hearing, so shall return soon. Sheeesh, last time I was there one of the arrogant Senators questioned the new "manager" of the King's army about his background in the procurement and employment of battle steeds and warriors. His quote was, "Just what, if anything, does the Secretary substitute for experience?"

to be continued............

(edited to comply with LWF's request later in the thread)

The RAF was slated to receive the `Vark in the late sixties. We canceled the TSR2 for it. It was supposed to be the cheaper option! Turns out the F-111 was going to be MORE expensive than the plane that was canceled, argghh!
I hear there were a lot of developmental problems with the F-111 program, but I am not 100 percent certain. Was the `Vark also "rushed into service" for the SEA campaign?

On wing sweep systems, the UK Tornado had auto wing sweep but the RAF turned the system off on all of it`s planes. This increased the crew workload. They figured that they didn`t want the wings sweeping fore and aft when the pilot didn`t want them to!!!! Some (inexperienced) Tornado pilot said the plane would tell you when the wing sweep was wrong when you got severe airframe vibration!!! Be interested to know if there was an active system on the F-111.

Got more questions than answers on this one, how was the low level ride on the `Vark, smooth or a roller coaster ride?
Did the crews love it or loathe it?
Maintenance pig or a breeze?

Seemed to do an adequate job over Libya way back!

all Vark's had a manual sweep only.
i belive they were quite smooth at low level,unlike their F-15E replacements
Aircrews loved it,Groundcrew loved them to but they were pig's for maintenance

snypa777 wrote:

I hear there were a lot of developmental problems with the F-111 program

There were problems. First, the TFX program was spearheaded by a SecDef that knew nothing of defense issues, let alone airplanes. Yes, our SecDef at the time was a former suit from a major U.S. auto corporation, who was more concerned about the bottom line than what was needed, or what really worked.

Anytime you try to have a plane that does every job for every branch of service, you will have problems. This is what is known as "F-4 Syndrome". Need proof? Simply take a look at what is happening now with the F-35/JSF program...but let's leave the discussion in this thread to the F-111. We have enough people talking F-35 on several other threads as it is. Wink

Anyway, long story short, the Navy balked at the TFX program, and McNamara forced it on the AF. Thus, the AF gained an aircraft that they never really wanted, that couldn't effectively do the job it was designated to do. Time to get creative...

snypa777 wrote:

Was the `Vark also "rushed into service" for the SEA campaign?

It was briefly combat tested in '68, but didn't return to Vietnam until around '72. Gums can give us more on what happened there.

snypa777 wrote:

Seemed to do an adequate job over Libya way back!

D@mn right! Thanks to the French and the Spanish, Operation El Dorado Canyon was the longest combat mission for an aircraft designated "Fighter".

A guy I worked with helped plan the mission, and I learned that had the lead jet not had a problem with his Pave Tack, we would've put a GBU right between Qaddafi's eyes. The WSO tried to keep the Laser Target Designator centered, but it kept going just off center. Instead of Qaddafi Duck, we took out the baby's room. Que Sera Sera, right?

Only one jet was lost, and the crew was unfortunately killed, but all in all, a very successful mission. You haven't heard much from Colonel Qaddafi lately, and now, he wants to be our friend. Imagine that? Laughing

Lawndart, thanks for the info on the wing sweep. I guess this means the Dash 1 had optimum wing sweep angles relative to the speed of the jet. I still think the F-14 had a better system...just flip a switch! Wink

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

One person I know likened flying the 111 to flying on a bottle rocket, all acceleration and no turning.
And weren't several of the ones sent to 'Nam for the combat test lost in fairly short order? I think it had something to do with rudder flutter problems, and other problems from the complexity.

I have heard a similar story LWF. Hopefully, Gums or Snake can chime in on the 111's combat experience in Vietnam.

One particular story I enjoy comes from guys who were stationed at Upper Heyford (E models) and/or Lakenheath (F models). Drivers would "initiate" new crewmembers and incentive riders by flying TFR over the North Sea! How's that for a ride? Shocked

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Horrido!

more of the "fable" I started in last post to follow......

First, the Combat Lancer deployment ended after a few 'varks didn't return. What I heard was that the TFR malfunctioned when the gomers sprayed chaff or heavy AAA out front. Maybe the thing climbed and the AAA or SAMs got them. There was also a problem with the elevator hardware, best I can recall.

By the time I got back there in '72, the thing was doing really well, and I dropped on the wing of a 'vark one afternoon, as he used his beacon doofer and radar. We had the same beacon capability in the SLUF, but the grunts and 13th AF didn't trust us.

Second, the wing sweep was a typical design geek decision - go fast, push forward. Heh heh. Every pilot thot it was backwards, but too many $$$ to change the mechanical linckage, etc. So you pulled it back to sweep the wings forward. Seemed we had a detent for 55 degrees, otherwise full sweep either way.

I had one joyride in the beast at Cannon. The "D" had the best avionics, and a lot of the GD design was evident. I got to fly a pilot and his WSO on low-level radar missions. In return, I got my ride in their jet. Landed the suckerr, too. Piece of cake. Hell, when you get 80,000 pounds or so headed in one direction, it tracks down final real easy. Hardest thing to compensate for was when the wheel "truck" touched and the wings had over a ton of weight removed from their load, heh heh.

The thing was a delight at low altitude and 600 knots. Felt like an old Caddy - soft suspension, no bumps and jerks. And we weren't even at mil power.

Because I had 1000 hours in the SLUF and another 400-500 in the Viper, operating the radar came real easy. When they flew with me, both the 'vark pilot and WSO thot the Viper radar was real easy to operate. Makes sense, as it was engineered for one guy.

Neatest thing was the "hat rack/coat rack" in the capsule. Was Super Bowl week (Bengals vs Niners) and cold as a witch's xxxxxx. Got in, took off the winter jacket, etc., hung it on the rack and was very comfortable.

Third, the El Dorado Canyon loss was likely a crew that really believed all the propaganda about the SA-6 and such. There's a time to fly in the rocks and that ain't a lot of the time. All the old farts would remind the yutes that the Pk of the rocks was a lot higher than any missile or Mig ever built. That's the truth, boys and girls, and it still is.

The best version of the 'vark I saw was the Spark Vark. Why we traded the thing for the EA-6 is a mystery. OTOH, the EA-6 can fly off of the boats, and the 'vark can't.

I flew with a Sparkie one day at a Green Flag - leading the attack, as they say. Straight in and was protected by the "shower of power". He did a 180, kept jamming and my wingie and I got all the way in thru a SA-4 site and bombed an SA-6 site - unmolested the whole way. Heh heh.

gottas log............

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 25, 2003 - 10:03 PM Posts: 679

I always liked that jet, a guy on my board was a crew dog at cannon during DS. Said the later models really boogied. Didn't they have TF-30 PW mills like the Turkey?

Roger that. The 111s had TF-30s, although I'm not sure on the dash number. There was an idea to reengine the fleet with F110s (once again, like the Turkey), but Congress decided to divert further funding for the jet to the Strike Eagle program. Obtaining more $$$ for the Raptor had something to do with it as well.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Forum Veteran Joined: Dec 25, 2003 - 10:03 PM Posts: 679

That woulda been great! More thrusties!

Amazing piece of hardware. Did the DCM and maintenance super get pro pay to spend on theropy? Laughing

Like Gums first post. Methinks he went to the Midevil Nights Restaurant. Laughing

One place I was at years ago the Recce F-4s had the PAVE TAC ( or as they would call it PAVE DRAG )... amazing piece of hardware for the day. Huge and forget what version of the F-111 had it in the Eldorado Canyon era ( D's or F's? always get that mixed up ). I was taking photos of the USAF boss visiting RAF Alconbury and he had what had to be the youngests O-6 I ever saw in my life with him. The kind you would ask for their I.D. at a bar. He was carrying a briefcase with him that looked kinda weird. I can only imagine. They went from where I was to points east to ( what I would assume a day later.... ) visit the players before the big game. ( Eldorado Canyon ) ( and don't forget the USN part ( Prarie Fire ).

Elite 1K Joined: May 26, 2005 - 08:39 PM Posts: 1496

Gums wrote:

The thing was a delight at low altitude and 600 knots. Felt like an old Caddy - soft suspension, no bumps and jerks. And we weren't even at mil power.

Well, then on full blower they MUST do Mach 3 on the deck like Ximeno said! Rolling Eyes

Swing wings just look cool. What are the physics of a good low level ride with fully swept wings? Very high wing loading means less effect from turbulence, or what?

Lakenheath flew Fs. Upper Heyford flew Es, and EFs, but the only players that participated from UH were the Spark 'Varks. Lakenheath got the nod because they had the Pave Tacks, which could retract into the bay. Pretty cool thing...but all of the stuff that the big, unwieldy Pave Tack pod had, can now fit into a very small pod.

Beers and MiGs were made to be pounded!

Forum: Military Aircraft of the Cold War

The 'Vark (F-111)