Shooting down a Raptor via IR tracking

Could be a Raptor be shooted down by a Typhoon via IR tracking?
(Germans are working on a double seeker radar-IR for meteor )

Thyphoon current IR seeker is pretended to be able to lock on a Raptor
8-80 km far away.( It is supposed to be very susceptible to weather conditions)

Would it be possible for Europe to develop a more effective IR seker for Typhoon?

Any contribution is welcome.

Technology is always advancing. Nearly every weapons advance has eventually been countered. It just takes talent and money. Somebody, someday may be able to counter the superiority of the Raptor. It just depends on whether or not they have the money and want to spend it on that.

Please don't construe this as an answer to your question. I don't know anything about that and couldn't answer if I did.

Just remember you have to get close enough to shoot a missile and with current capabilities that will be hard to do against the Raptor.

I can't remember exactly where I read it, but I seem to recall seeing that a Raptor has tracked and locked onto targets as far as 300+ miles away. Now, I know we don't have missiles with that range, but I'm willing to bet that he'll know where you are and what you're doing while he's far enough out so that he can come up on your 6 and then bring you into range of his AMRAAMs.

I'd say no way you'll ever get to take the shot.

Also you must to consider that if IR homming could be a treat, the Raptor could be equipped (if isn't already) with DIRCM.

parrothead wrote:I seem to recall seeing that a Raptor has tracked and locked onto targets as far as 300+ miles away.

Yes.... by way of the data link. In the 03/13/00 issue of Aviation Leak" page 26 there is an article "F-22 Radar Ranges Pass Expectation" by David Fulghum. In the article he writes;
"While it's true that the F-22 AESA radar's typical operating range is 120mi. or less, that distance is driven by the need to lower or derate its output power."
"By limiting the strength of signal output, dividing the signal into several frequency bands, frequency hopping and limiting the radar's field of view, the F-22 should be able to avoid detection even when using its radar."
"The radar ranges of AESA-equipped aircraft stair-step down from a specified 90 mi. for the Joint Strike Fighter, through the F-15 and AESA, to a projected 70 mi. for the Block 60 F-16. All ranges are predicated against a 1-meter-square target."
"At maximum range, the F-22 is specified to have a 86% probability of detection of a 1-meter target with a single radar hit. A 1-meter target would be about the size of a cruise missile"

VMF-214 wrote:Also you must to consider that if IR homming could be a treat, the Raptor could be equipped (if isn't already) with DIRCM.

It is and in 2008 during the modifications then, the F-22 will recieve a IR array detection system (IRST). One detector just below the radar antenna and one detector in each of the wing roots!

Adrian

Of course it could. The trick though will be getting close enough and in the right position to fire the IR missile.

You may like to know that there are 2 Typhoons now permanently deployed to the states....

Originally for testing duties however according to pilots from the squadron involved (17) the USAF are also now paying the RAF to use them for the F-22 as close in (I know you guys say "but BVR it will never get close in"; you still need to TRAIN for it just in case) aggressors. As its been discovered the Typhoon is the only thing that can hold its own and even defeat it in the WVR arena!

Oh and for definitive mass typhoon v f-22 engagements... keep your eyes on RAF Lakenheath in the next 6 weeks

Andy

Yes.... by way of the data link. In the 03/13/00 issue of Aviation Leak" page 26 there is an article "F-22 Radar Ranges Pass Expectation" by David Fulghum. In the article he writes;
"While it's true that the F-22 AESA radar's typical operating range is 120mi. or less, that distance is driven by the need to lower or derate its output power."

The Raptor has tracked targets as far as 320 miles away with it's own power. It is an AESA with 8,000 watts after all. The LPOI mode is what Avon 1944 is referring to and it is a pilot selectable mode.

Boff 180, It's good they are using the opportunity to train against the Raptors. There's no reason it shouldn't hold it's own up close with Raptor, or any other aircraft in the world.

Oh and for definitive mass typhoon v f-22 engagements... keep your eyes on RAF Lakenheath in the next 6 weeks

Will they be using an over water training area? Limiting both aircraft to subsonic engagements gives no indication of the real performance of either aircraft. We are talking about the two best performing fighters in the world in the high speed envelope after all.

Please keep us informed if you hear anything. Thanks, JL Raleigh NC

I don't know anything else myself at the moment, I found out about it Wednesday... the guy that told me did know dates but wouldn't tell me as it would get a few Typhoon jocks in deep trouble

Andy

From close in, any good IR missile with a good imaging seeker will be able to down an F-22, the Raptor only has to be a few degrees in temp` above background levels to be seen with today`s technology. There is some very smart seeker tech` out there....The trick is getting in close in the first place..good luck!

Other things to think about...Aircraft outer parts get hot, depending on speed, altitude, etc...The F-22 has wing leading edge cooling, a special IR signature reducing topcoat and a special paint on engine nozzles that acts as a RAM and IR suppression coating. IR sensors are good at seeing jet wake, so
the F-22 can supercruise, this means even lower IR emissions in dry power as opposed to full afterburner. Don`t see much engine masking, as on the B-2 and F-117, so the designers have made some compromises because it is a fighter first and foremost. IR supression is done by other means.

IR detection can be adversely affected by weather, moisture content in the air, etc...smart seekers can adjust the bands that they use for detection though, typically from 1 to 12 microns. The trick for plane makers and IR emissivity guys is keeping the emissions low over a broad frequency range. I bet a LOT of work has been done on the F-22 in that arena!

snypa777 wrote:typically from 1 to 12 microns

Pendantic, I know, but that's about the WHOLE IR spectrum (well near IR anyway, far IR kinda mushes into visible). The atmospheric 'holes' are mostly at 3 to 4 µm and at 8 to 12 µm.

I seem to recall a discussion about the F-22's supercruise ability. Just because the engines aren't in AB doesn't mean their fuel flow is low. At full MIL power they burn a LOT of gas, it's the price you pay for all that dry power.

Engines as powerful as the F-22s will show up on IR, but you first have to get into IR range of it... and that is gonna be HARD.

As its been discovered the Typhoon is the only thing that can hold its own and even defeat it in the WVR arena!

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I heard something else; the Tornado can take the F 22 in BVR...

Guysmiley wrote:I seem to recall a discussion about the F-22's supercruise ability. Just because the engines aren't in AB doesn't mean their fuel flow is low. At full MIL power they burn a LOT of gas, it's the price you pay for all that dry power.

Good point there, although the temperatures at the nozzle get hotter in full AB, this increases the range at which IR systems can bag you. A small temperature increase can increase emissivity by an order of magnitude.
Carbon particles in the exhaust can present a problem also concerning emissions that can be detected....

Here is good photo, a snap shot from a Mirage 2000D PDL-CT pod. Apparently this system wasn`t designed for this kind of tracking but got this shot of French Airforce Jaguar. This was from 35 nautical mile range. In perfect weather!
The second pic` is the pod itself. The third pic shows another method of IR suppression on the YF-23, special ceramic tiles on the exhaust areas. The `23 had some kind of tile on the intake as well.